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Author Topic: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...  (Read 12999 times)

Jose

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2017, 08:42:38 pm »

Does it make sense if I run two nodes instead of one with same amount of NXT, just splitted? Would that secure the network more than just with one node?

As I understand it, the amount of NXT (PoS) and not the amount of nodes is securing the network, right?

There is no additional benefit in doing this for the total forging stake.

I might be wrong, but maybe two nodes would be better than just one with the same overall amount of NXT in case someone were trying to attack the network by shutting down legit nodes...
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Jose

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2017, 08:46:33 pm »

51% attack?  Are we still worried about that?  Let's see....to get 51%, a malicious actor would have to buy up a LOT of NXT, driving the price super high only to destroy his own investment.  I don't see that happening....ever.

Yes, we're still worried.

The bear market which lasted almost 3 years gave many opportunities to buy very cheap NXT, who knows if someone was buying hundreds of millions and is preparing an attack when their stake becomes greater than the total forging stake, the latter has been going down to reach all time low this month. The attack would have the most (dramatic) effect on the date of Ardor launch, the attacker would be in possession of a lot of Ardor as well, and could attack both networks at the same time.

The reason to destroy can be: a) non economic (attacker's vested interest is in fiat, possibly limitless fiat); b) economic in case the attacker wants to destroy NXT to protect their investment in other crypto with which NXT is in competition (attacker doesn't lose anything because their investment in other crypto grows up if NXT fails).

To protect against this threat every NXT holder and their mother must forge. There is no other way in Nxt as a proof-of-stake system.

In addition, an exchange with hundreds of millions of NXT in it could be hacked. It wouldn't be the first time an exchange gets hacked, would it? :D https://mynxt.info/accounts/
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 06:24:38 am by Jose »
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Megalodon

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2017, 10:55:36 pm »

...and your investment also dies.

When the total forging stake gets too low, security of the network is decreased, it becomes vulnerable to 51% attacks.

The total forging stake has dropped to 270 million of the total supply of NXT coins. This is an all time low. Please start forging to protect your investment.

It is precisely for this reason that I initiated the Forging Bounty back in June 28, 2016.
After running it for over a year and distributing almost 2 million NXT, the result has been disappointing. Instead of seeing an increase, we get a decrease in total forging power. Obviously, this incentive does not work. Hence, I'm cancelling this bounty program.

However, the Lucky Node program run by Lurker10 will continue to be funded until further notice.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 11:01:08 pm by Megalodon »
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qq2536007339

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2017, 12:01:31 am »

...and your investment also dies.

When the total forging stake gets too low, security of the network is decreased, it becomes vulnerable to 51% attacks.

The total forging stake has dropped to 270 million of the total supply of NXT coins. This is an all time low. Please start forging to protect your investment.

It is precisely for this reason that I initiated the Forging Bounty back in June 28, 2016.
After running it for over a year and distributing almost 2 million NXT, the result has been disappointing. Instead of seeing an increase, we get a decrease in total forging power. Obviously, this incentive does not work. Hence, I'm cancelling this bounty program.

However, the Lucky Node program run by Lurker10 will continue to be funded until further notice.

In past few month,price has been increased a lot,forging revenue can't compare to that.Not sure if you notice,exchange accounts already been the most rich accounts,and they all not forging.If fact,I think Poloniex can start 51% attact now,if they want.

NXT-NEQW-Q7UK-MUNN-B2L4P and NXT-253H-ESRL-K87C-4R9FG all belong to Poloniex,total amount is over 220M,and we only have 270M forging,so it's little scare to think about it.

But look at the bright side,even forging power is little down,node is increased a lot.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 12:04:50 am by qq2536007339 »
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Blue7

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2017, 12:55:13 am »

This is easy. Set up Rasberry farm, nxt cloud mine .... You could even have an ancillary business much like bit club. Members sign up from an NXT approved operation. Then they have the full client which is where the real value is for most... A trading platform, eBay, voting, messages, it is a creative persons full colour piano Lamborghini...

I expect the reward to be paid after a message.... Time stamp noted.
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Blue7

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2017, 03:50:52 am »

I ordered a Vpn using a Linux server.... Is this all I had to do? It looks like I am forging. I still can't attach the public key... I have done transactions. This is through the web wallet client, it is outdated but is working. It should be easy...

Will keep playing around, this is NOT why I came here, I came to sell products, services and trade. I don't know If I can do that yet. Now I have to learn what a vpn Vps do..

As I write this forging light is green... It is like 12$ for the month. Would this be a net loss on forging.... Will let u know
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Jose

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2017, 06:36:38 am »

...The total forging stake has dropped to 270 million of the total supply of NXT coins. This is an all time low. Please start forging to protect your investment.
It is precisely for this reason that I initiated the Forging Bounty back in June 28, 2016.
After running it for over a year and distributing almost 2 million NXT, the result has been disappointing. Instead of seeing an increase, we get a decrease in total forging power. Obviously, this incentive does not work. Hence, I'm cancelling this bounty program.

However, the Lucky Node program run by Lurker10 will continue to be funded until further notice.
I can see your point. It's your decision and, of course, I respect it. And somehow I agree with it. I really appreciate all your efforts and setting up this bounty program. I really think that many people who wasn't forging back then started doing it because of your incentives ;) Who knows what the forging power would be nowadays if it weren't for your bounty program. So thank you very much Megalodon!!! :) :) :)
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lurker10

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2017, 06:40:28 am »

...and your investment also dies.

When the total forging stake gets too low, security of the network is decreased, it becomes vulnerable to 51% attacks.

The total forging stake has dropped to 270 million of the total supply of NXT coins. This is an all time low. Please start forging to protect your investment.

It is precisely for this reason that I initiated the Forging Bounty back in June 28, 2016.
After running it for over a year and distributing almost 2 million NXT, the result has been disappointing. Instead of seeing an increase, we get a decrease in total forging power. Obviously, this incentive does not work. Hence, I'm cancelling this bounty program.

However, the Lucky Node program run by Lurker10 will continue to be funded until further notice.

Thank you Megalodon.

I remember proposing giving special rewards in the new Ardor platform to Nxt forgers, but that proposal didn't go well. This sad state of affairs wouldn't be so sad if there was additional incentive to forge.

It is still possible for developers to assign some portion of IGNIS from the 50% ICO'ed IGNIS to Nxt forgers according to the number of blocks they forged in the last month before Ardor is launched, without breaking any social contract. This incentive could help undo laziness of new users and make them learn to run nodes and to forge.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 06:45:15 am by lurker10 »
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farl4bit

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2017, 10:06:54 am »

Forging power is raised to 360 Million. Not by me btw.  ;D

https://nxtportal.org/monitor/
274 million, I think they show the average of 10'000 blocks.

I thought Nxtportal wasn't reliable anymore. Look at https://www.mynxt.info/forging_calculator.php

...and your investment also dies.

When the total forging stake gets too low, security of the network is decreased, it becomes vulnerable to 51% attacks.

The total forging stake has dropped to 270 million of the total supply of NXT coins. This is an all time low. Please start forging to protect your investment.

It is precisely for this reason that I initiated the Forging Bounty back in June 28, 2016.
After running it for over a year and distributing almost 2 million NXT, the result has been disappointing. Instead of seeing an increase, we get a decrease in total forging power. Obviously, this incentive does not work. Hence, I'm cancelling this bounty program.

However, the Lucky Node program run by Lurker10 will continue to be funded until further notice.

Sad to see you stop the bounty program. I think the people who are forging already forged even before the bounty program. We could make a new announcement of your bounty program with big sharks and big numbers. Nxt has more attention than it had a year ago. Would that convince you to continue the program?

Thanks again for your support. much appreciated. Because of your bounties I have 12 nodes running now.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 10:11:23 am by farl4bit »
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lurker10

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2017, 11:25:01 am »

I thought Nxtportal wasn't reliable anymore. Look at https://www.mynxt.info/forging_calculator.php

I think they are reliable, maybe mynxt.info uses a different time span?
I ran a script to check the number of forgers, the results are consistent with what nxtportal has.
If there was a surge in forging power in the last few hours that mynxt.info takes into account, this will show in nxtportal stats in about a week.
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cayenne

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2017, 11:55:56 am »

What will the forging fees be when Ardor is the main currency? Is it 1 ARDR just as it is now 1 NXT? What if the price of ARDR goes very high?
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lurker10

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2017, 12:17:08 pm »

What will the forging fees be when Ardor is the main currency? Is it 1 ARDR just as it is now 1 NXT? What if the price of ARDR goes very high?

In the Ardor chain the only functions are send ardor (costs 10 Ardor) and lease balance, this chain isn't prunable, this is the justification for high fees to keep the chain small. I hope the lease balance fee is kept small to encourage forging. All the fees can change on the mainnet from what they are temporary set to now on the testnet. If the price goes very high which is a good problem to have, users will make fewer transactions on the Ardor chain, this chain is for security of the network only, Ardor can be viewed as a network security token. You only need to pay a fee to deposit into your account and optionally to lease balance once every few weeks to start forging. It makes no sense to pay someone for something with Ardor. That's what child chains are for.

IGNIS and other child chain tokens can be viewed as currency, their fees start from 0 if a bundler is ready to subsidize this free transaction.
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forkedchain

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2017, 02:36:23 pm »

yes, something needs to be done to encourage forging.  we are fighting against human nature here (laziness, inverse tragedy of the commons, etc)   it looks like tezos and their noldilutionary inflation model was set up to fight this.

as brilliant as NXT is, I wish they could address this problem in Ardor.
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lurker10

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2017, 02:53:04 pm »

100 million out of the 500 million IGNIS share that is to be ICO'ed, distributed to Ardor forgers over 5-10 years could go a long way to provide additional forging incentives. Just saying :)
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Megalodon

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2017, 03:15:21 pm »


.... I think the people who are forging already forged even before the bounty program.

Exactly! That's why I stopped the bounty because it has failed to incentivise new/smaller forgers.

... We could make a new announcement of your bounty program with big sharks and big numbers. Nxt has more attention than it had a year ago. Would that convince you to continue the program?

No. We did that at the launch of the program, and the news was even picked up by several news outlets:-
“The Forging Bounty Lottery campaign” will pay 5 million in rewards to forgers and Nxt nodes
Ardor Launch Promoted With 5 million NXT Reward
Crypto Investor Offers $150,000 NXT Bounty To Launch Ardor Blockchain Platform
Ardor blockchain launch to get a shot in the arm with $150,000 bounty
Nxt’s New Ardor Blockchain Mysterious Member Launches $150,000 bounty
(At its peak, that bounty was worth over $1.2 million).

Although Nxt is more well known now, most of the newcomers are not users - just speculators who leave their Nxt at exchanges. So, if we make another "big" announcement, I doubt it will change the situation. For speculators, gains from trading far outweigh gains from forging, no matter how big the bounty.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

I believe we have to address the underlying reason(s) why interest in forging is waning. Many suggestions/comments have been made about improving ease of forging/leasing, client UI & other incentives, but they rank low on the priority list of devs, if they get there at all. Until that changes, I doubt this bounty program will help much.

Consider this:

In the early days, whales hold the bulk of Nxt but were actively forging. People complained about poor distribution.
Over time, the distribution has improved considerably, but most new/smaller stakeholders are not forging. Now, imagine the situation where Mr.47 and a handful of remaining whales' forging stake are distributed to say 1,000 new users holding 100,000 Nxt each. If nothing changes, what do you think will be the active forging power?

We are at the brink of launching Ardor, whose main function is to provide blockchain security for all child chains. If the fundamental issues of forging is not addressed, how are we to achieve our goals? Probably the devs know something we don't.
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starik69

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2017, 05:07:49 pm »

Is there any sence to propose some exchanges to forge with their wallets? ???
Forge for themsrelves, not giving their clients forged NXT. :P
Then people, who will see that they are loosing forging income, will withdraw NXT from exchanges and start to forge? ::)
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MrV777

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2017, 05:29:57 pm »

Is there any sence to propose some exchanges to forge with their wallets? ???
Forge for themsrelves, not giving their clients forged NXT. :P
Then people, who will see that they are loosing forging income, will withdraw NXT from exchanges and start to forge? ::)

It would be really great if exchanges just leased their big balances to pools for a community fund
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forkedchain

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2017, 06:44:38 pm »

but if poloniex leased out, then their leasor would be able to generate 51% attack, no?  im still not quite sure what a 51% attack in PoS looks like.  bersides, i though NXT was OK up until a 90% attack???

but i just dont see it happening, for exchanges to lease out.  at least the whole amount.  it would be in the exchanges best interest to either forge themselves  or lease out *some* portion, because:

exchanges want to make $.  forging will do this some more and leasing out will do this some more.  but if an exchange were to pull off some attack, the coins utility and value would crash, thus taking away $ making potential from the exchange in trading fees, of which they get TONS more from than they would by forging/leasing.  but if they dont forge or lease out, it could all come crashing down for NXT.

for that reason, i doubt an exchange would lease all their forging power out.  it would give external party potential to pull off some attack and mess up the exchanges potential trading moneymaking.

but for sure, it would be in their best interest for each one to lease some partial amoubnt out to *somewhere*
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 07:04:10 pm by forkedchain »
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ThomasVeil

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2017, 05:21:15 am »

Well, I started forging because of the bounty. So it did help - who knows how bad it would be without it. Thanks a lot (also for the lucky node lottery)!

But it was a lot of work setting up the node. I think it was about 8 hours for a cloud-server, all things considered. And I have to keep up maintenance (renewing lease, updating the Nxt-software). If you never used Linux and servers, then the learning curve is steep. And I'm not even a computer-noob. People won't have the motivation to put this effort in for Nxt, nor would most even have the time if they wanted to. Nevermind that I also have running costs now that exceed the forging rewards.

Even with the lotteries the rewards are way to low to make it worth the effort for small users. It is actually rational to rather use all that time and effort to research/invest other crypto currencies - the investment/payout ratio would be higher. We have to cope with the fact that the crypto space is crowded - and attention is the actual most scarce and valuable resource.

but if poloniex leased out, then their leasor would be able to generate 51% attack, no?

So Polo ain't forging at all? Well that would explain a big part of the issue. Most small buyers won't bother getting the real wallet. Any bigger buyers won't even be able to get their crypto out of there.

Quote
  im still not quite sure what a 51% attack in PoS looks like.  bersides, i though NXT was OK up until a 90% attack???

90% was with transparent forging. Which AFAIK was never fully implemented (only bits and pieces).

The argument about "protect your investment" is the stronger one compared to fees. We should be able to make that clear to Polo also. The effort it would take them to lease is negligible compared to the risk they create.
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galeki

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Re: If you do not forge, Nxt dies...
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2017, 03:22:13 pm »

Instead giving NXT to hallmark nodes in a lottery way, why not setup a real lottery?

Like 10 NXT a ticket, to win 100 or 1000 or 10000 NXT. Than community just use those collected NXT to setup and maintain more nodes.
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