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Nxt Discussion => Nxt General Discussion => Topic started by: pablox45 on September 19, 2016, 12:03:47 am

Title: Function of Ardor token
Post by: pablox45 on September 19, 2016, 12:03:47 am
New guy over here. Can someone point me in the right direction to help me understand what will be the function of the ardor token? Is it like ether for Ethereum? This is the only example that it is coming to my mind at the moment. Thanks in advance for your patience!
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: durerus on September 19, 2016, 03:02:38 am
Welcome! Check the first link in my signature.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: Brangdon on September 19, 2016, 09:46:42 am
It's more like hashpower in Bitcoin or Ethereum. It is a scarce resource that allows the network to reach a consensus by preventing stuffing the ballot box.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 19, 2016, 12:25:20 pm
Ardor token is your chance to forge a block. The more you have the bigger your chance to collect all childchains' fees in your forged block.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: pablox45 on September 20, 2016, 12:33:05 am
Thanks everyone!!  :D
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: HCLivess on September 21, 2016, 11:34:29 am
Ardor token is your chance to forge a block. The more you have the bigger your chance to collect all childchains' fees in your forged block.

what is the reward for forging a block? more ardor?
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 21, 2016, 11:41:17 am
Ardor token is your chance to forge a block. The more you have the bigger your chance to collect all childchains' fees in your forged block.

what is the reward for forging a block? more ardor?
Childchain fees.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: martismartis on September 21, 2016, 12:07:33 pm
Ardor token is your chance to forge a block. The more you have the bigger your chance to collect all childchains' fees in your forged block.

what is the reward for forging a block? more ardor?
Childchain fees.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you forge Ardor main chain blockchain block, you get Ardor. If you forge/bundle child chain block, you get child chain native token fees and this child chain forger/bundler needs to pay Ardor to Ardor main chain forgers for child chain block be included in Ardor main chain blockchain.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: wolffang on September 21, 2016, 12:30:16 pm
Ardor token is your chance to forge a block. The more you have the bigger your chance to collect all childchains' fees in your forged block.

what is the reward for forging a block? more ardor?
Childchain fees.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you forge Ardor main chain blockchain block, you get Ardor. If you forge/bundle child chain block, you get child chain native token fees and this child chain forger/bundler needs to pay Ardor to Ardor main chain forgers for child chain block be included in Ardor main chain blockchain.

Correct but bundlers dont forge
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 21, 2016, 12:54:03 pm
Ardor token is your chance to forge a block. The more you have the bigger your chance to collect all childchains' fees in your forged block.

what is the reward for forging a block? more ardor?
Childchain fees.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you forge Ardor main chain blockchain block, you get Ardor. If you forge/bundle child chain block, you get child chain native token fees and this child chain forger/bundler needs to pay Ardor to Ardor main chain forgers for child chain block be included in Ardor main chain blockchain.
Correct. It was discussed multiple times but I could not convince people that bundlers and Ardor payments are not needed in this process. :)
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: durerus on September 25, 2016, 08:37:51 am
Ardor token is your chance to forge a block. The more you have the bigger your chance to collect all childchains' fees in your forged block.

what is the reward for forging a block? more ardor?
Childchain fees.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you forge Ardor main chain blockchain block, you get Ardor. If you forge/bundle child chain block, you get child chain native token fees and this child chain forger/bundler needs to pay Ardor to Ardor main chain forgers for child chain block be included in Ardor main chain blockchain.
Correct. It was discussed multiple times but I could not convince people that bundlers and Ardor payments are not needed in this process. :)
And I thank God every day that you couldnt  ;D
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: Brangdon on September 25, 2016, 09:01:27 am
Ardor token is your chance to forge a block. The more you have the bigger your chance to collect all childchains' fees in your forged block.

what is the reward for forging a block? more ardor?
Childchain fees.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you forge Ardor main chain blockchain block, you get Ardor. If you forge/bundle child chain block, you get child chain native token fees and this child chain forger/bundler needs to pay Ardor to Ardor main chain forgers for child chain block be included in Ardor main chain blockchain.
Correct. It was discussed multiple times but I could not convince people that bundlers and Ardor payments are not needed in this process. :)
Often the bundler and the Ardor forger will be the same account. So then there is no separate bundler needed, the Ardor fees don't matter because the forger is paying them to themselves, and the fees they receive are in the child chain tokens.  So bundlers and Ardor payments are not actually needed if you do it this way. However, having forgers and bundlers be optionally separate is more flexible and enables some new use-cases.

I'm not sure if this is what you meant. Durerus reply made me think it wasn't.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: lurker10 on September 25, 2016, 09:38:31 am
For all child chains but Ignis the bundler and the Ardor forger being the same should not be as common though.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: NXT ENTERPRISE on September 25, 2016, 09:49:05 am
Is it correct Ignis is NXT 2.0 with all the functions moved there in one year.

Ardor has not any public usable functions.

Does NXT 2.0 or Ignis have any new functions or upgrades to maintain price as the new system is still a year a way and are we going to hold an uptrend in Nxt?

Also BCNext seems alive and well making his last reddit post about Nxt..

https://www.reddit.com/user/BCNext

Would love to have him active even in just this forum..
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 25, 2016, 11:48:22 am
Ardor token is your chance to forge a block. The more you have the bigger your chance to collect all childchains' fees in your forged block.

what is the reward for forging a block? more ardor?
Childchain fees.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you forge Ardor main chain blockchain block, you get Ardor. If you forge/bundle child chain block, you get child chain native token fees and this child chain forger/bundler needs to pay Ardor to Ardor main chain forgers for child chain block be included in Ardor main chain blockchain.
Correct. It was discussed multiple times but I could not convince people that bundlers and Ardor payments are not needed in this process. :)
Often the bundler and the Ardor forger will be the same account. So then there is no separate bundler needed, the Ardor fees don't matter because the forger is paying them to themselves, and the fees they receive are in the child chain tokens.  So bundlers and Ardor payments are not actually needed if you do it this way. However, having forgers and bundlers be optionally separate is more flexible and enables some new use-cases.

I'm not sure if this is what you meant. Durerus reply made me think it wasn't.
Your explanation is correct. Maybe Durerus responded in a such way because he afraids of something in this system?
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 25, 2016, 11:50:59 am
For all child chains but Ignis the bundler and the Ardor forger being the same should not be as common though.
Why do you think so?
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: lurker10 on September 25, 2016, 12:08:54 pm
For all child chains but Ignis the bundler and the Ardor forger being the same should not be as common though.
Why do you think so?

Supposedly businesses will approach Nxt devs and order a child chain on the platform. They will buy *some* Ardor tokens in the open market, enough to pay fees to Ardor forgers, but will not do Ardor forging themselves. They can, and it's not unlike hosting for instance. Organizations can set up a dedicated server in the office and use it to serve their website and some do that, but most of them outsource hosting to other companies who's business is hosting. It's cost efficient for them to outsource specialized tasks that are outside their scope. Do you have a different opinion about this?
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 25, 2016, 04:24:06 pm
For all child chains but Ignis the bundler and the Ardor forger being the same should not be as common though.
Why do you think so?

Supposedly businesses will approach Nxt devs and order a child chain on the platform. They will buy *some* Ardor tokens in the open market, enough to pay fees to Ardor forgers, but will not do Ardor forging themselves. They can, and it's not unlike hosting for instance. Organizations can set up a dedicated server in the office and use it to serve their website and some do that, but most of them outsource hosting to other companies who's business is hosting. It's cost efficient for them to outsource specialized tasks that are outside their scope. Do you have a different opinion about this?
For businesses it is easier to give some value to childchain tokens (eg by buying on the market) to make it attractive to Ardor forgers. Still no need for bundlers.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: abctc on September 25, 2016, 07:00:05 pm
For businesses it is easier to give some value to childchain tokens (eg by buying on the market) to make it attractive to Ardor forgers. Still no need for bundlers.
- easier? May be easier, but much more expensive. In case of their dedicated bundler they need to "buy" for ARDR only those childchain tokens that payed as fee, whereas on the market they ought to buy all the childchain tokens supply.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 25, 2016, 07:16:57 pm
For businesses it is easier to give some value to childchain tokens (eg by buying on the market) to make it attractive to Ardor forgers. Still no need for bundlers.
- easier? May be easier, but much more expensive. In case of their dedicated bundler they need to "buy" for ARDR only those childchain tokens that payed as fee, whereas on the market they ought to buy all the childchain tokens supply.
Actually the can just promise to buy childchain tokens. It will be enough to give incentive to forgers to include them in blocks. The only reason for bundlers to exist is subsidized or feeless child chains.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: m200 on September 26, 2016, 07:10:29 am
Hello. Where can I check Ardor development progress? GitHub link or something?

Thank you.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: NxtSwe on September 26, 2016, 09:19:23 am
Hello. Where can I check Ardor development progress? GitHub link or something?

Thank you.
It would actually be nice with an update in this regard.
I suppose a lot of development is going on behind the scenes and progress have been made.
Have you discovered something new, that changes the original plan? Is there an update to the time table? Anything else?
I'm not requiring full source code as it looks today, but seeing how other crypto projects (komodo for example) post daily or at least weekly development progress on both steemit&btc, the total silence makes me a bit uneasy.
But I'm not paying the devs, so I have no right to require anything. I'm just voicing my opinion. I also realize that writing blogs/posts take away time from development..
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: lurker10 on September 26, 2016, 10:18:41 am
Monthly progress updates would be nice to have.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: Brangdon on September 26, 2016, 01:00:50 pm
For businesses it is easier to give some value to childchain tokens (eg by buying on the market) to make it attractive to Ardor forgers. Still no need for bundlers.
Raising the price of the child-chain tokens for the sake of forgers also raises it for everyone else. I imagine most child-chains will want cheap tokens to encourage use. It seems to me that the main benefit of running a child-chain, rather than just cloning the entire Nxt or Ardor system, is that it allows cheap tokens without compromising security or suffering from spam, and that's what I'd expect to see on child-chains.

Do you see bundlers as a problem? Would we be better off without them? If so, why?
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 01:23:30 pm
For businesses it is easier to give some value to childchain tokens (eg by buying on the market) to make it attractive to Ardor forgers. Still no need for bundlers.
Raising the price of the child-chain tokens for the sake of forgers also raises it for everyone else. I imagine most child-chains will want cheap tokens to encourage use. It seems to me that the main benefit of running a child-chain, rather than just cloning the entire Nxt or Ardor system, is that it allows cheap tokens without compromising security or suffering from spam, and that's what I'd expect to see on child-chains.
I did not say we should raise the price of the childchain tokens for the sake of the forgers. Any value of the tokens will make bundlers obsolete.

Do you see bundlers as a problem? Would we be better off without them? If so, why?
I do not see them as a problem. They are simply unneeded in the proposed system hence there won't be such a thing in Ardor.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: abctc on September 26, 2016, 04:51:41 pm
.. Any value of the tokens will make bundlers obsolete.
- even if the resulting value of the fee would be considered by forgers as inadequate? In this case the forgers will reject such childchain block, whereas the bundler (read "childchain creator") could sponsor transactions (block creation).
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 04:55:05 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain :)
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 04:56:49 pm
.. Any value of the tokens will make bundlers obsolete.
- even if the resulting value of the fee would be considered by forgers as inadequate? In this case the forgers will reject such childchain block, whereas the bundler (read "childchain creator") could sponsor transactions (block creation).
This sponosrhip I mentioned before (as subsidation). But actually any value of the token will fit. Let's suppose you are Ardor forger and you have an option to include a block (for free since it is your turn to forge) and get some childchain tokens or do not include and miss those tokens. So it is an option to get some value VS an option to not get any value. Which one do you choose?
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 05:00:17 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain :)
I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: martismartis on September 26, 2016, 05:56:15 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain :)
I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?

To forge/bundle on child chain will be able anybody.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 06:00:50 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain :)
I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?

To forge/bundle on child chain will be able anybody.
Yes but it is only up to the Ardor forgers which bundles to include. And I believe they will include only own bundles for maximum profit.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: lurker10 on September 26, 2016, 06:26:31 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain :)
I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?
, thank you for your offer but I don't have a coin :)
To forge/bundle on child chain will be able anybody.
Yes but it is only up to the Ardor forgers which bundles to include. And I believe they will include only own bundles for maximum profit.

How about if users transactions don't hit the network (offchain) but instead are submitted and fees paid directly to bundler because bundler packages some valuable service on top of transaction processing.
What if there is no technical possibility for an Ardor forger to collect child chain fees and he/she must use the middleman.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: websioux on September 26, 2016, 06:29:48 pm
As a forger, what you want, most of the time is ARDOR tokens, not childchain tokens. Indeed, you might bundle the childchain transactions and get the childchain fees and have no Ardor if you value those more...

Even, if you want to promote valueless childchains, you will need ARDOR stake to forge as much as possible.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 06:36:33 pm
I think if we'll have child chain with token pegged or backed by fiat (eur, usd, etc) and fees paid in this token, we will have a lot of bundlers for child chain :)
I expect the opposite. Why should forger give away those pegged tokens to bundlers instead of taking them to himself?
, thank you for your offer but I don't have a coin :)
To forge/bundle on child chain will be able anybody.
Yes but it is only up to the Ardor forgers which bundles to include. And I believe they will include only own bundles for maximum profit.

How about if users transactions don't hit the network (offchain) but instead are submitted and fees paid directly to bundler because bundler packages some valuable service on top of transaction processing.
What if there is no technical possibility for an Ardor forger to collect child chain fees and he/she must use the middleman.
Of course there are use cases for external bundlers. But we will likely not see them until NXT 3.0 :)
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 06:42:33 pm
As a forger, what you want, most of the time is ARDOR tokens, not childchain tokens.
Are you sure? As a forger I already have a lot of Ardor so I will likely want not more Ardor but more profit to ROI faster.

Even, if you want to promote valueless childchains, you will need ARDOR stake to forge as much as possible.
I will likely just buy a necessary stake of Ardor on the market to pay the fees in this case. However valueless childchain sounds a bit weird. If it is valueless why should I create such a chain? There is a use case with feeless chilchains but it is another topic...
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: lurker10 on September 26, 2016, 06:49:54 pm
Well, it's not profitable to forge right now. Many forgers do it anyway. It's not always about maximum profits.
There is delayed profit - you do charity work including unprofitable transactions for some community and they help spread the word about the platform, and this brings new users who may be able to afford to pay much more. You don't always know which connection can bring a nice reward in the end.
Generally yes, the system should take into good consideration economic incentives as one of the main drivers but it is not an exclusive driver.
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: blackyblack1 on September 26, 2016, 07:00:02 pm
Well, it's not profitable to forge right now. Many forgers do it anyway. It's not always about maximum profits.
There is delayed profit - you do charity work including unprofitable transactions for some community and they help spread the word about the platform, and this brings new users who may be able to afford to pay much more. You don't always know which connection can bring a nice reward in the end.
Generally yes, the system should take into good consideration economic incentives as one of the main drivers but it is not an exclusive driver.
You are right but I do not see what could this add to the topic. So we have enthusiastic forgers. What does it change?
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: lurker10 on September 26, 2016, 07:10:23 pm
Well, it's not profitable to forge right now. Many forgers do it anyway. It's not always about maximum profits.
There is delayed profit - you do charity work including unprofitable transactions for some community and they help spread the word about the platform, and this brings new users who may be able to afford to pay much more. You don't always know which connection can bring a nice reward in the end.
Generally yes, the system should take into good consideration economic incentives as one of the main drivers but it is not an exclusive driver.
You are right but I do not see what could this add to the topic. So we have enthusiastic forgers. What does it change?

The difference is a functioning system VS no system when motivated by instant gratification only.

Perhaps I misunderstood and your question is about use cases for bundlers. I think it can be extrapolated to that of use cases for blockchains in general. A lot of smart people in the world are in search of good answers to this question. If such answers are found hopefully by then Nxt will be able to accommodate these use cases having solved the scalability issue. I mean what is the choice?
Title: Re: Function of Ardor token
Post by: Brangdon on September 27, 2016, 07:55:29 pm
Let's suppose you are Ardor forger and you have an option to include a block (for free since it is your turn to forge) and get some childchain tokens or do not include and miss those tokens. So it is an option to get some value VS an option to not get any value. Which one do you choose?
It depends on the cost of processing those transactions. I don't know what that will be. You'll have to receive and store them eventually regardless, when someone else includes them, but presumably there will be some overhead in doing it in advance. You may not want to devote resources to this, especially if you are in a race with other forgers, or if you are on a device with limited processing power, memory, or bandwidth. Also, block-chain space may become a limited resource, in which case you'd rather include high-paying transactions than ones from low value child-chains.

Also, I think child-chains will be sponsored one way or another quite often. Although some may function as private currencies, more will treat their tokens merely as fuel for the network, and all the attention will be on things like property rights and voting rights that are represented in the network. A business will probably want low fees, so their users aren't struggling to fund transactions, even if it means paying all the Ardor themselves. Also, if space in blocks becomes contended, then then may want to pay higher Ardor fees to get their transactions verified quickly, without their users having to think about it. In general, the value of the child-chain to the owner is not the market capitalisation of its tokens.
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