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Crowd-funding without IPO
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Brangdon

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Crowd-funding without IPO
« on: March 31, 2016, 08:48:56 pm »

So TNNSE raised some money successfully by using the Monetary System in crowd-funding mode. I think we should at least consider trying to raise development and operations money the same way. Is there any chance at all it could work?

The reality is that Nxt is facing an existential crisis. We have some time, maybe a year, but the money we have will run out and then we must get more in order for the Nxt project to continue. We may all be faced with a choice:
  • Accept an IPO that reduces the value of your NXT holding by 10%.
  • Donate 10% of your holding to a D&O fund.
The advantage of the second option is that it does not dilute the currency, or break any promises about dilution. It is also something we can try with relatively little risk. With the Monetary System, you can pledge your 10%, and if not enough other people do the same, then the fund-raising fails and you get your 10% back.
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lurker10

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2016, 08:55:55 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months. 50M fNXT is $200 000 at today price of NXT / 2. It's a good start and should reduce whatever additional funding current investors have to bear in the future. It costs nothing to try and should give good results. It will save valuable resources in forging power which will be wasted if allocated to dead accounts.
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Nxter

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2016, 09:02:17 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.

Yes and we can add to that:
-Dark NXT those are the accounts that nobody knows the password and somebody sent NXT to them by mistake  Ok, I just realized that darkNXT accounts cannot send the "Im alive message" so they are included in your proposal :P
-Dust NXT those are accounts with less than 1 full NXT, those fractions of NXT are locked there because the fee to transact them out is 1 NXT
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 09:06:26 pm by Nxter »
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lurker10

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2016, 09:07:09 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.

Yes and we can add to that:
-Dark NXT those are the accounts that nobody knows the password and somebody sent NXT to them by mistake
-Dust NXT those are accounts with less than 1 NXT, those fractions of NXT are locked there because the fee to transact them out is 1 NXT

These are all included in the formula :)
If an account doesn't send a message in 6 months, it doesn't receive fNXT. It's easy and elegant. Define a block height of the 1.9 hard fork and allocate the asset to all accounts with the "i'm alive" message at that block, the rest goes to IPO.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2016, 09:11:15 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.

Yes and we can add to that:
-Dark NXT those are the accounts that nobody knows the password and somebody sent NXT to them by mistake
-Dust NXT those are accounts with less than 1 NXT, those fractions of NXT are locked there because the fee to transact them out is 1 NXT

These are all included in the formula :)
If an account doesn't send a message in 6 months, it doesn't receive fNXT. It's easy and elegant. Define a block height of the 1.9 hard fork and allocate the asset to all accounts with the "i'm alive" message at that block, the rest goes to IPO.

NXT forum administrator can send a global message (registered email) to all it member too, so it reach almost everyone.
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bcdev

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2016, 09:13:05 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.
There is no such thing as a "dead account". Every account without an owner shrinks the supply and thus makes every other coin more valuable. There is no economical difference between leaving "dead accounts" as they are VS splitting them fairly between every other account [according to balance].

Such solution would effectively kill any trust in NXT, including mine. It would be 100 times worse than shenanigans that DarkCoin and Bitshares ever did.
BAD IDEA. Let lost NXT stay lost forever.
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lurker10

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2016, 09:14:16 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.
There is no such thing as a "dead account". Every account without an owner shrinks the supply and thus makes every other coin more valuable. There is no economical difference between leaving "dead accounts" as they are VS splitting them fairly between every other account [according to balance].

Such solution would effectively kill any trust in NXT, including mine. It would be 100 times worse than shenanigans that DarkCoin and Bitshares ever did.
BAD IDEA. Let lost NXT stay lost forever.

What do you suggest selling? NXT in a sidechain will remain in a dead account, shrinking the supply. Only fNXT are recovered, and that's good for forging power.

$200 000 is only 500 bitcoins. I believe even current NXT investors can collect this much and they will, that means if new investors add another 500 bitcoins, it can double the price of NXT before Nxt 2.0 happens.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 09:18:50 pm by lurker10 »
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Sebastien256

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 09:18:40 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.
There is no such thing as a "dead account". Every account without an owner shrinks the supply and thus makes every other coin more valuable. There is no economical difference between leaving "dead accounts" as they are VS splitting them fairly between every other account [according to balance].

Such solution would effectively kill any trust in NXT, including mine. It would be 100 times worse than shenanigans that DarkCoin and Bitshares ever did.
BAD IDEA. Let lost NXT stay lost forever.

What do you suggest selling?

Another possibility could be to sell features. As an exemple, like removing cloud storage from NXT2.0 childchain and ipo a childchain that have only this cloud storage but with a new token. I don't know if such thing is possible or could be envisageable.
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lurker10

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2016, 09:23:38 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.
There is no such thing as a "dead account". Every account without an owner shrinks the supply and thus makes every other coin more valuable. There is no economical difference between leaving "dead accounts" as they are VS splitting them fairly between every other account [according to balance].

Such solution would effectively kill any trust in NXT, including mine. It would be 100 times worse than shenanigans that DarkCoin and Bitshares ever did.
BAD IDEA. Let lost NXT stay lost forever.

What do you suggest selling?

Another possibility could be to sell features. As an exemple, like removing cloud storage from NXT2.0 childchain and ipo a childchain that have only this cloud storage but with a new token. I don't know if such thing is possible or could be envisageable.

I don't know, sounds complicated. The IPO needs to happen before Nxt 2.0.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2016, 09:27:00 pm »

I don't think it is much complicate, another possibility would be to implement the new feature only on new childchain and ipo those new childchain each time.

If the childchain is succesfull then it is good for the investors.

I don;t think we should restrict ourselve in thinking that ipo has to happen before 2.0.
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lurker10

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2016, 09:35:05 pm »

I don't think it is much complicate, another possibility would be to implement the new feature only on new childchain and ipo those new childchain each time.

If the childchain is succesfull then it is good for the investors.

I don;t think we should restrict ourselve in thinking that ipo has to happen before 2.0.

These recovered fNXT will fund immediate needs in 2017. Marketing funds will be spent at the end of 2016. Nxt 2.0 is likely not coming before middle-end of 2017. This is 6 to 12 months of no funding for marketing, and some dev funding could be used too. $400 000 recovered from fNXT should help in 2017 before Nxt 2.0 is ready. This leaves us a month of discussions and 6 months before the 1.9 hard fork to let users confirm their alive status before marketing funds run out if we go with this plan. What else is for sale if not these fNXT I don't know.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2016, 09:37:53 pm »

I just told that current or future feature could be sold. I also think they can be sold before 2.0 too. On 2.0 they would not be on NXT childchain but only on the new childchain. Not sure if it is doable or make fully sense tho, a dev would need to confirm.
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farl4bit

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2016, 09:44:02 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.
There is no such thing as a "dead account". Every account without an owner shrinks the supply and thus makes every other coin more valuable. There is no economical difference between leaving "dead accounts" as they are VS splitting them fairly between every other account [according to balance].

Such solution would effectively kill any trust in NXT, including mine. It would be 100 times worse than shenanigans that DarkCoin and Bitshares ever did.
BAD IDEA. Let lost NXT stay lost forever.

I agree. There are plenty of people who don't check there crypto wallets for a year or travel the world for a year. And they will be left behind. These are not nice solutions. Nxt will be called scam even more.

The crowdfunding Brangdon is offering is a good idea. It can be done at all time. I suggest he starts one on the Monetary System.  :)
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lurker10

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2016, 09:47:55 pm »

I just told that current or future feature could be sold. I also think they can be sold before 2.0 too. On 2.0 they would not be on NXT childchain but only on the new childchain. Not sure if it is doable or make fully sense tho, a dev would need to confirm.

Selling future features in private sidechains to businesses is devs and marketing teams source of income.

Selling fNXT from dead accounts on the NXT public chain is what the community has power over.
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lurker10

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2016, 09:53:24 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.
There is no such thing as a "dead account". Every account without an owner shrinks the supply and thus makes every other coin more valuable. There is no economical difference between leaving "dead accounts" as they are VS splitting them fairly between every other account [according to balance].

Such solution would effectively kill any trust in NXT, including mine. It would be 100 times worse than shenanigans that DarkCoin and Bitshares ever did.
BAD IDEA. Let lost NXT stay lost forever.

I agree. There are plenty of people who don't check there crypto wallets for a year or travel the world for a year. And they will be left behind. These are not nice solutions. Nxt will be called scam even more.

The crowdfunding Brangdon is offering is a good idea. It can be done at all time. I suggest he starts one on the Monetary System.  :)

There is no nice solution to this. Nxt will be called scam if fNXT are forcefully expropriated from every account (I am referring to Accept an IPO that reduces the value of your NXT holding by 10%.). Nxt will be called scam if IPO happens in any form. Nxt has been called scam for a long time.

Crowdfunding with donations will collect little and time will be lost.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2016, 09:53:33 pm »

I just told that current or future feature could be sold. I also think they can be sold before 2.0 too. On 2.0 they would not be on NXT childchain but only on the new childchain. Not sure if it is doable or make fully sense tho, a dev would need to confirm.

Selling future features in private sidechains to businesses is devs and marketing teams source of income.

Selling fNXT from dead accounts on the NXT public chain is what the community has power over.

My idea is about selling unique feature for public child chain that are ipo. Thise feature would not be on the NXT2.0 childchain so they have unique value. Those ipo can happen right now if we want  :).
Nxt will be called scam if IPO happens in any form.
On the plus side, NXt could not be called a scam if the feature are new and never existed on the Nxt platform before.

I switch topic as I think I was outside topic, sorry brangdon:
https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/ipo-of-future-feature/
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 10:17:11 pm by Sebastien256 »
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farl4bit

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2016, 10:05:26 pm »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months.
There is no such thing as a "dead account". Every account without an owner shrinks the supply and thus makes every other coin more valuable. There is no economical difference between leaving "dead accounts" as they are VS splitting them fairly between every other account [according to balance].

Such solution would effectively kill any trust in NXT, including mine. It would be 100 times worse than shenanigans that DarkCoin and Bitshares ever did.
BAD IDEA. Let lost NXT stay lost forever.

I agree. There are plenty of people who don't check there crypto wallets for a year or travel the world for a year. And they will be left behind. These are not nice solutions. Nxt will be called scam even more.

The crowdfunding Brangdon is offering is a good idea. It can be done at all time. I suggest he starts one on the Monetary System.  :)

There is no nice solution to this. Nxt will be called scam if fNXT are forcefully expropriated from every account (I am referring to Accept an IPO that reduces the value of your NXT holding by 10%.). Nxt will be called scam if IPO happens in any form. Nxt has been called scam for a long time.

Nxt will still be Nxt, but it has a motherchain underneath. I don't call that a scam.
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devlux

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2016, 10:27:38 pm »

Am I the only person who sees fNXT and reads it as f*NXT.

Give it a better name it will go down easier.

I'm ok with the idea of sweeping all dust (1NXT or less) into large pile and just dumping it, but for a whole other reason.
It cleans up the blockchain and allows that dust crap to be pruned.  Seriously anything more than 1NXT and you've got problems, but 1 NXT from an account that hasn't see usage in years is just costing everyone money in terms of HD space and bandwidth.

Frankly that's just a thing that ought to happen once a year automatically anyways.

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ron

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2016, 12:27:44 am »

I think some 50M fNXT can be recovered and sold in IPO from dead accounts. Dead account is an account that fails to send a "I'm alive" message in 6 months. 50M fNXT is $200 000 at today price of NXT / 2. It's a good start and should reduce whatever additional funding current investors have to bear in the future. It costs nothing to try and should give good results. It will save valuable resources in forging power which will be wasted if allocated to dead accounts.

The total number of dark NXT is 13328411. So let's say there are 20M in dead accounts after no "alive" message was sent. How could we use this NXT without expropriation?

Answer: Lock it to the "crowd-funding IPO" account.

This account will receive all 20M fNXT after the 1:1 sharedrop.
This account will activly forging all the time and is under supervision (account control) of the marketing team/TNNSE
But they can't sell the fNXT easily. The community must crowdfund/donate some of their own fNXT to this account in order to keep the level of 20M.
Assume after a funding campaign the marketing team could raise 10M fNXT from community stakeholdes. So they can sell it in the IPO to new investors.

I'm thinking of these advantages:
1. IPO of 10M fNXT managed under control of the marketing team without dilution
2. Stakeholders are contributing to an always forging "crowd-funding IPO" account
3. If (very unlikely) any dead accounts wake up, they can reclaim their fNXT from marketing team
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saladin89

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Re: Crowd-funding without IPO
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2016, 01:40:22 am »

this is one of the reasons i like that nxt is not democratically run. People like Dameleon and jlp understand that taking nxt out of peoples acount which don't check them every six months will kill nxt and any trust big corporations have in it.
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