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Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
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TheCoinWizard

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2015, 10:41:58 am »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.
But 0 NXT is ?!?
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2015, 01:05:21 pm »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.
But 0 NXT is ?!?

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).
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cc001

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2015, 02:00:44 pm »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.
But 0 NXT is ?!?

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).

I kind of like the idea to use not only the fee, but also the number of transactions (per block..??) to prevent spam.
What do you think about the following thoughts:
We allow a lot of transactions with high fees, but only a few with low fees. That will prevent spam, because you can not transmit a lot of low-fee transactions in a short amount of time, but you still can use transactions with very low fees. You can push a lot of high-fee transactions though.

My idea is the following: keep the number of transactions from one account per block, divided by the fee, below a constant number.
As a formula: NbrOfTransactions / Fee <= Constant.

NbrOfTransactions is always meant per block.

I give an example with arbitrary numbers:
C = 100

So, someone is allowed to push 100 1NXT-Fee-Transactions per block (100/1 <= 100). If he wants to push 200 Transactions, he must pay 2NXT fee per transaction if he wants to get them included in one block (200/2 <= 100), if he pays only 1NXT fee, it will be published in two blocks.
If anybody wants to pay only 0.01NXT fee per transaction, he can publish only 1 transaction per block (1/0.01 <= 100).
If someone wants to spam with 100 0.01NXT-fee-transactions, the transactions will be distributed over 100 blocks (and are no spam...)

Of course C = 100 is just an example. And of course all transactions could have different fees, so the real formule would be more like 1/F1 + 1/F2 + 1/F3 + .... <= C (with FX = Fee of transaction X)

What do the math-, coding-, and crypto-pros think about that system? Is that something worth to think about, or am I completely wrong?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2015, 02:11:53 pm »

There is still the problem that a spammer could use 100 different accounts, to spam with 0.01-fee-transactions. how could that be prevented? making transferring NXT to new accounts more expensive (minimum of 1 NXT per "money-transaction")? Other ideas?
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farl4bit

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2015, 02:13:52 pm »

Can't we make different segments of fees for different kind of transactions? For sending NXT, the fee is good. But for arbitary messages I suggest to make the fee 0.1 NXT. The network would still be safe and we need incentives for the forgers.
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #105 on: July 27, 2015, 02:14:12 pm »

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.
At that price, even 1 NXT per transaction only costs around $2,500 to fill a day's worth of transactions.

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).
The problem with anything account-based is that the attacker can create as many accounts as they need. We could allow, say, 1 free or cheap transaction a day, and if the attacker created 700 * 255 = 178,500 accounts they could fill up every block indefinitely. Again, that'd cost around $2,500 currently to set up, which isn't a lot.

(This problem arises with cc001's proposal, too.)

Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.

If Nxt is at all successful, we're going to have to deal with large block-chain sizes sooner or later.
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #106 on: July 27, 2015, 02:25:22 pm »


Can't we make different segments of fees for different kind of transactions? For sending NXT, the fee is good. But for arbitary messages I suggest to make the fee 0.1 NXT. The network would still be safe and we need incentives for the forgers.

We should try to find a solution that enables us to support the "Africa" use case. The fee of 1 NXT is not much for us, but way too high in those developing countries.
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v39453

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #107 on: July 27, 2015, 02:40:34 pm »

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).

A transaction from an account that has had no activity for a while could have a lower fee. This would be similar to Bitcoin, where transactions with old inputs are free. It could also be a sliding scale: the longer the account is inactive, the lower the fee for the next transaction becomes.
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Kevinrasf

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #108 on: July 27, 2015, 02:57:13 pm »

Can't we make different segments of fees for different kind of transactions? For sending NXT, the fee is good. But for arbitary messages I suggest to make the fee 0.1 NXT. The network would still be safe and we need incentives for the forgers.

I must agree, for sending transaction the fee is good.

But for simpler stuff like voting or sending messages the fee should be lowered.

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TheCoinWizard

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #109 on: July 27, 2015, 03:03:36 pm »

I hope some people will try to read it  :)

1. Towards the Africa argument... Blockchain technology costs to use.
Depending on how many nodes are running a blockchain, the more expensive, but also the safer it is.
It will be difficult to be as competitive with blockchain technology as centralized services are.
However, it is possible, by not having to keep to many copies of the blockchain, and thus not to have to much nodes.

Since nxt has already more than 200 nodes running, the cost of transactions is higher.
But since the blockchain is 200+ times decentralized copied the safety keeping the public ledger is also high.

If we wish to offer extremely cheap transactions, the only way is to not have them on the nxt blockchain,
but on its own clone-blockchain, supported by much less nodes than nxt is.
It would be optionally forged by nxt forgers according to the nxt stake the forger has and wether they choose to forge that coin.

In my idea of this 'child-nxt-chain' the only thing being saved on the nxt blockchain is the unique ID's of these currencies.
Offering nxt forgers to also forge these coins, chosen individually.
As with Assets their names are not unique.
Their transaction fee can be set when they are created, and is paid not in NXT, but in its own currency.
The fee to issue them on the nxt blockchain can be very low since all the bloat it causes there is the id of the currency saved.

Code: [Select]
Technicly the issuing fee could even be near zero if nothing about it would be on the nxt blockchain,
and the child-nxt-chain would itself refer to the nxt blockchain in order to see who has which forging power.
This would be like facilitating easily cloning of nxt, in order to make nxt more valuable since the clones are set up Proof Of NXT Stake.

If the transaction fee is to worthless forgers will choose not to support it, and it might even die off if noone does.
If the transaction fee gets valuable, more forgers will choose to allow their node to support that chain, and as it gets safer.


2. Now on towards how much a fee should be on the nxt blockchain itself.

The tragedy of the commons JL is referring to is because the forger that creates a block gets the fees, yet the commons are responsible to save and upload that date when needed for the future.
This IS already a fact and cannot be avoided on the long term by just keeping it quiet.
Over time forgers WILL UNDERCUT these hard-coded imposed fees,
first for creating their own free transactions.
Later for offering cheaper, or even free, transactions to third parties.

The ONLY way to get rid of this 'tragedy' is by reorganizing the fee structure,
so the rewards get spread over creating blocks and uploading old blocks.

Though I think this is a good idea, it would be a huge change to the current NXT system. Lots of code to rewrite, etc.
I do not think this is an urgent thing to implement.

What I do feel is urgent to implement is a system that changes to nxt fee according to the amount of data it writes in the blockchain and for how long that data needs to be saved.
Like X nxt per kB per 100'000 blocks

I also feel that it is more than a year overdue to couple the fees more to their fiat values.
I think that forgers themselves are most in place to decide how much that is.
More than the programmers who have proven just keep the 1 nxt fee a constant, no matter how much discussion about it.

Hence the vote on it: Should fees be consensus set, or set by the individual forger
With Poll ID:    https://nxtportal.org/polls/2799041280732484164

If you get what I typed, go ahead and vote "The fees should be decided by the forgers."
Otherwise read my post again, think, and try to understand it   :D :D :D
Maybe even ask a question about what part you do not get...
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2015, 03:06:58 pm »

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).

A transaction from an account that has had no activity for a while could have a lower fee. This would be similar to Bitcoin, where transactions with old inputs are free. It could also be a sliding scale: the longer the account is inactive, the lower the fee for the next transaction becomes.

Good idea, but I'm not sure if this technically is going to work. The forging node must determine the age of the last tx for every account in the unconfirmed txs, wouldn't that put much more workload on the node?
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dude

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #111 on: July 27, 2015, 03:13:11 pm »

...
Sorry if this is another wall of words.
...

It is, this time from the 30 senteces you posted, there is some actual information in 4 of them. The main one being "we manage the private keys of the wallets".

Because getting more information would probably be quite a task and everything is as I expected, let's break down what you are actually doing.

1) your service is a direct copy of M-PESA system (from the view of a customer) - which means you are essentially a bank that uses mobile phones instead of credit cards
2) your service has a twist though! you want to mirror all transactions on a blockchain (while holding all private keys, using Nxt's MS currency), the reason being to
eliminate corruption and enable transparency
3) you are expecting 400,000 transactions per day, which is currently cca two times what could Nxt network handle at full load (800 blocks x 255 TXs/day = 204000, leaving no space for any other transaction)
and translates to roughly 0.5GB of new blockchain data every day
4) you have a problem, because it would cost you too much to do this using the current system, you want lower, preferably zero TX fee

So, where do I start? I would expect most people with basic understanding of any blockchain system to see why this idea doesn't make sense and isn't solving any problems.

Let's forget about the current limitations of Nxt's blockchain (space and fees) and focus on the fact that the basic principle of any cryptocurrency,
where the user is the owner of his money and does not rely on any third party to make and verify transactions (the reason why it's been created) is missing in your concept,
there is no need for a blockchain in a system where one entity owns all the private keys.

I know people are desperate for adoption of Nxt's technology, but it must be applied where it makes sense, not just slapped on a legacy system with no real purpose and hoping noone will notice.
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landomata

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #112 on: July 27, 2015, 03:27:37 pm »


Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.


This looks promising....a portion of each block for low fee transactions....after the 0.01 Nxt "Tier" gets filled it moves to the next "Tier" 0.5 Nxt and then the next, etc.

Each Tier would have a set amount of transactions it can hold for each block....If you have an urgent transaction you pay 2 Nxt for the higher Tier.  If you have a low fee transaction then you can wait till a future block picks it up.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 03:33:13 pm by landomata »
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TheCoinWizard

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2015, 03:31:34 pm »


Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.


This looks promising....a portion of each block for low fee transactions....after the 0.01 Nxt "Tier" gets filled it moves to the next "Tier" 0.5 Nxt and then the next, etc.

Each Tier would have a set amount of transactions it can hold for each block.
[sarcasm]
Yeah, only 10% of the infinit blockchain bloat, very promising it is  :D
[/sarcasm]
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #114 on: July 27, 2015, 03:38:33 pm »

A transaction from an account that has had no activity for a while could have a lower fee. This would be similar to Bitcoin, where transactions with old inputs are free. It could also be a sliding scale: the longer the account is inactive, the lower the fee for the next transaction becomes.

Good idea, but I'm not sure if this technically is going to work. The forging node must determine the age of the last tx for every account in the unconfirmed txs, wouldn't that put much more workload on the node?
It should be cheap enough to store the block height of the most recent transaction with the account that made it, along with the account name, balance and all its other properties. It's just a few bytes, and the account needs to be loaded to check the balance anyway. However, it has the usual problem that attackers can create very many accounts.

cc001 suggested making it more expensive to create accounts. Say, 10 NXT. That would help, but it would make it more expensive for newcomers to try out Nxt. Also, I guess a fee that high to create an account would be a burden in poor countries.
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landomata

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #115 on: July 27, 2015, 03:41:03 pm »


Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.


This looks promising....a portion of each block for low fee transactions....after the 0.01 Nxt "Tier" gets filled it moves to the next "Tier" 0.5 Nxt and then the next, etc.

Each Tier would have a set amount of transactions it can hold for each block.
[sarcasm]
Yeah, only 10% of the infinit blockchain bloat, very promising it is  :D
[/sarcasm]

Yeah I'm trying to look at this from a variety of perspectives....blockchain bloat is bad, but non adoption and death of Nxt is worst.

Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2015, 03:45:56 pm »

[sarcasm]
Yeah, only 10% of the infinit blockchain bloat, very promising it is  :D
[/sarcasm]
It's not infinite; not until Nxt has been running forever. (And we all know it will be deaded in 1,000 years.)

And at some point we're going to have to cope with blocks that are 10% full anyway. If something like the Africa suggestion takes off, we're going to get at least that many honest transactions. All a spammer will be doing is replacing some honest ones with dishonest ones (and screwing up African users, but that can't be helped).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 03:48:02 pm by Brangdon »
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LocoMB

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #117 on: July 27, 2015, 03:56:37 pm »

1.
2.
3.
4.

You do point out scalability issues that we need to address sooner or later anyway.

However, there are also valuable use cases of the blockchain that do not simply involve using Nxt as payment tokens for 1:1 payments.
The blockchain is an immutable ledger that can be used for far more than that, and not all of that involves bloat.


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Klokan

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2015, 04:01:41 pm »

Can't we make different segments of fees for different kind of transactions? For sending NXT, the fee is good. But for arbitary messages I suggest to make the fee 0.1 NXT. The network would still be safe and we need incentives for the forgers.

I must agree, for sending transaction the fee is good.

But for simpler stuff like voting or sending messages the fee should be lowered.

Disagree (partially). Let's look for some dividends payment, or micropayment in general - if somebody wants to send to you (e.g.) 2.73NXT, 1NXT fee is "more than high". The same for sell/bid orders in AE -- lot of people would be motivated to do "exchange business" for 10NXT profit, if they believe, that 10NXT will be sometimes $10, or $100 (or 1BTC, or something like this ;) ). But with 1 (or more) NXT as a fee ... maybe this is one of the reason, why the volume in AE is not so much high (..as we all wish it would be).

How hard would be change fee algorithm e.g. in this way : 1% of transaction amount, if this amount is <100NXT, for >=100NXT would be still 1NXT ? This would solve the "micropayment issue", but not the "spamming one", that's right.

I'm afraid that there is no easy solution for all "use cases" there...
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Klokan

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #119 on: July 27, 2015, 04:08:39 pm »


Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.


This looks promising....a portion of each block for low fee transactions....after the 0.01 Nxt "Tier" gets filled it moves to the next "Tier" 0.5 Nxt and then the next, etc.

Each Tier would have a set amount of transactions it can hold for each block.
[sarcasm]
Yeah, only 10% of the infinit blockchain bloat, very promising it is  :D
[/sarcasm]

Yeah I'm trying to look at this from a variety of perspectives....blockchain bloat is bad, but non adoption and death of Nxt is worst.

Absolutely indeed. I don't say that the general reason of "a weak adoption" of NXT is the (current) constant 1NXT fee, but I think it may adversely affect in some cases.

Somebody proposed the idea with lower fee for the "first transactions" in each block and increasing for each other (in the same block). User has two choices then : Get the lower fee and wait for the next block(s) or insert his transaction quickly for the current block with higher fee. Yes, it's similar to Bitcoin, but ... why not ?
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