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Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee? singapore
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Author Topic: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?  (Read 24235 times)

Damelon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2015, 12:00:55 pm »

Could you explain why someone who makes 1-5 dollars a week has a need for his transaction to be on a global blockchain and what means he has to achieve this (i.e. how is he going to cryptographically sign and broadcast his transanction)?
I interpret this as 'anybody being that poor should not have any business important enough to bother a blockchain with anyway, so why bother with such low end customers?'
This seems incredibly arrogant to me.

Care to dispel my misunderstanding?

First of all, my main point is in the second part of the sentence, are you saying all of these people have a smartphone and unlimited access to internet anywhere?  If not, how is it going to work?

Same as above. Buying a soft drink or a bag of rice using a blockchain based payment system is something you sneer upon?
Maybe you typed before thinking, but that is exactly the case: In the economy we are discussing here, $0.0123 does in fact correspond to 0.25 currency units.
Hint: We are not discussing the USA here...

Second, tell me please the great world benefits of having a transaction that happenned hand to hand for a bag of rice on a global blockchain verifiable forever. It's not about sneering, it's about being reasonable.

$0.0123 is also Z$3.96, how that changes anything?

These people have access to basic phones and these transactions are being done by SMS.

It's a proven concept and is HUGE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa is one of the best examples.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/05/economist-explains-18

Why do this instead of cash? Because it's perceived as safer and easier.
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tiker

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2015, 12:05:19 pm »

I'd actually like to see the MS transactions use a fraction of the MS currency as the transaction fee and not NXT.

This would allow different countries using MS to have fees paid at an amount scaled to their currency values and not restricting all different MS currency transactions to the same NXT value fees.
What would stop me creating a worthless currency and then getting all my transactions effectively for free forever?
For example forgers' rule to process only limited set of MS currencies.
In other words, more technical  :), allow a new type of MS, which cost 0 nxt to create and uses its own unit as transaction fee, but is still being forged according to the nxts forging algoritm AND POS of nxt.

There would still be fees to setup the MS currency and possibly even higher setup fees than others to prevent people from randomly claiming MS currency codes for fun.  Setting up is one thing and shouldn't be free.  Making it easier (and in some cases cheaper) for people to use is the goal I had in mind.
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dude

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2015, 12:12:08 pm »

These people have access to basic phones and these transactions are being done by SMS.

Where does the Nxt blockchain come into play then?
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LocoMB

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2015, 12:36:47 pm »

 
First of all, my main point is in the second part of the sentence, are you saying all of these people have a smartphone and unlimited access to internet anywhere?  If not, how is it going to work?

It is called a 'feature phone'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_phone
and is something that is widely distributed, even in developing/emerging economies. There are even more people there that own feature phones than have bank accounts or credit cards.
The payments are made with SMS.


Quote
Second, tell me please the great world benefits of having a transaction that happenned hand to hand for a bag of rice on a global blockchain verifiable forever. It's not about sneering, it's about being reasonable.

Yes, just as 640kB of memory should be enough for everyone  ::)

Quote
$0.0123 is also Z$3.96, how that changes anything?

That number as compared to the volume of the transaction and your income is what changes everything.
Again, for you a can of soda costs $1.23, and those $0.0123 makes that 1% of the TX volume.
For other people, a can of soda costs $0.123 and those $0.0123 make that 10% of the TX volume.
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dude

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2015, 12:59:44 pm »

The payments are made with SMS.

Elaborate please.

Yes, just as 640kB of memory should be enough for everyone  ::)

I feel like you are the one who "typed before thinking". (I'm aware of the quote)

That number as compared to the volume of the transaction and your income is what changes everything.
Again, for you a can of soda costs $1.23, and those $0.0123 makes that 1% of the TX volume.
For other people, a can of soda costs $0.123 and those $0.0123 make that 10% of the TX volume.

Exactly, that's why it doesn't make sense to use this technology for this type of transaction.
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valarmg

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2015, 02:21:55 pm »


That number as compared to the volume of the transaction and your income is what changes everything.
Again, for you a can of soda costs $1.23, and those $0.0123 makes that 1% of the TX volume.
For other people, a can of soda costs $0.123 and those $0.0123 make that 10% of the TX volume.

Exactly, that's why it doesn't make sense to use this technology for this type of transaction.

Unless the fee is reduced, opening up Nxt to more applications and greater userbase.

Of course scaling has to be considered, but it's better to get as many users as we can while working in parallel to make sure everything can scale. No point in waiting to get perfect and forgetting about what users want, then by that time all the users will already be on other platforms.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2015, 03:23:24 pm »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2015, 03:48:16 pm »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.

Floating point is not a issue with Nxt. I think changing fee might just be a matter of changing some constants in the code.
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galeki

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2015, 04:19:22 pm »

I don't know fee is too low or too high, just feel a little weird.

If I write a app which make one action a block, I'll need 1440x365=525600NXT a year as fee. That's too high.

So definitely developers don't want me to do that.

The only acceptable frequency is about one action per hour which about 24x365=8760NXT a year.


We promote NXT as platform so much, but the fee is rule out a lots of possibility already. :(

 
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landomata

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2015, 04:24:15 pm »

Lower transaction fees will create many possibilities to extend the Nxt platform into new areas.

blackyblack1

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2015, 04:53:39 pm »

Lower transaction fees will create many possibilities to extend the Nxt platform into new areas.
For example?
What new areas are available with 0,5 NXT fee? 0,1 NXT?
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Sebastien256

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2015, 04:56:56 pm »

Lower transaction fees will create many possibilities to extend the Nxt platform into new areas.
For example?
What new areas are available with 0,5 NXT fee? 0,1 NXT?

That is to be discover  ;D
However, I'm sure some people can name a fews.
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Nicknxt

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2015, 05:04:13 pm »

The Solution in Africa works in a very simple way.

Users are either banked or unbanked.

They can register for a simple mobile money service using either a standard feature phone text / SMS, Smart Phone or web site.

When they register in any way they are created an NXT wallet and if they have a bank account this can be linked to their mobile money account as well.

By SMS we can use a number of techniques such as one time pin and IVR or other techniques to verify transactions, where we manage the private keys of the wallets. Why do we do this - because the users are illiterate and using an old feature phone so would be impossible otherwise, unless anyone can think of another way.

To get the widest adoption of a service it needs to work via 2G SMS as this is the lowest common denominator. i.e. areas with no 3G / 4G / LTE or Wifi or Sat Link.

The reason they use mobile money can be to pay for basic things such as water, sewerage, electricity, simply because it costs more to get on a bus to travel to the nearest township to pay the bill.

The reason to provide mobile money, it enables financial inclusion, the delivery of other financial services, such as reward per read for things such as world health organisation messages.

the reason to use Blockchain. Because there is a high degree of fraud and corruption. By being able to show proof of funds within minutes opens up huge opportunities for charities, government and business where money goes missing in the middle.

The Gates foundation (love it or hate it) has benchmarked mobile money as the biggest enabler / thing to watch over the next 15 years.

If Blockchain and decentralised currency systems want to actually work and provide a solution to a reasonable number of people, not just a few who can be fathom how to download and install a client and then have the capacity to download the blockchain, then it needs real world applications.

In the UK, Europe, US etc there are some many barriers to real adoption. Bitcoin has a loud speaker wherever you go and in reality not many people are actually using crypto currency on a day to day trading basis. Therefore in my opinion it stunts growth as it ends up being a bunch of nice ideas thought out as being a good idea possibly,then built and trying to find someone to use it.

Namibia has 2 million population, a forward thinking central bank, willing to look at blockchain technology, endorse it (possibly) and look at actually implementing all the theoretical use cases every other person spouts out at blockchain events without a real solution or answer to the question.

NXT has the opportunity to at least do a version 1 real life proof of concept / production launched application of the features and services it was built to handle. Therefore if it is to develop it needs to deploy in to a real world scenario so it can get real world feedback... Not just closed door testing.

Fees aside, no one even knows what it can handle in a real world scenario, so this is a fantastic opportunity to find out and then develop a roadmap to deliver real needs.

Sorry if this is another wall of words. I didn't think it was that difficult to understand what i was trying to write before. But then again I am trying to write it from a positive, business orientated, real world perspective. We have opportunities. Can they or will they be supported or should they be looking for other options?

i.e calm down and have a serious debate and find a solution that benefits NXT moving forward and long term as what will kill it will be the inability to deliver on real world projects, which are now starting to come through thick and fast.
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ThomasVeil

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2015, 07:26:19 pm »

Could you address some of the questions Brandgons posted for example. I.e.: Is that just a concern now or if NXT grows 10-fold?

The payments are made with SMS.

How much are the SMS fees? Really lower than the nxt fee?

If I write a app which make one action a block, I'll need 1440x365=525600NXT a year as fee. That's too high.
[...]
We promote NXT as platform so much, but the fee is rule out a lots of possibility already. :(

Well, it's the blockchain tech that limits the possibilities. Bloated blockchains would make it tough for people to provide nodes or use the currency. As such a balance has to be found - to allow lots of use, while stopping wastefulness.


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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2015, 06:35:12 am »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.

Floating point is not a issue with Nxt. I think changing fee might just be a matter of changing some constants in the code.

So let me do a little brainstorming here:

If we could have settings in nxt.properties for the different tx types and their minimum fees, every node operator could decide for himself how much fee he wants to include a tx in a block. I think this is similar to what bitcoin nodes do while mining a block. What about a tx which is not included? Will it be included later by any forging node with lower fee settings?
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blackyblack1

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2015, 06:43:19 am »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.

Floating point is not a issue with Nxt. I think changing fee might just be a matter of changing some constants in the code.

So let me do a little brainstorming here:

If we could have settings in nxt.properties for the different tx types and their minimum fees, every node operator could decide for himself how much fee he wants to include a tx in a block. I think this is similar to what bitcoin nodes do while mining a block. What about a tx which is not included? Will it be included later by any forging node with lower fee settings?
This is exactly how I see the market decision on tx fees. Not included txs will stay in the pool of unconfirmed transaction until included in block or deadline reached.
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ThomasVeil

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2015, 09:34:01 am »

So let me do a little brainstorming here:

If we could have settings in nxt.properties for the different tx types and their minimum fees, every node operator could decide for himself how much fee he wants to include a tx in a block. I think this is similar to what bitcoin nodes do while mining a block. What about a tx which is not included? Will it be included later by any forging node with lower fee settings?
This is exactly how I see the market decision on tx fees. Not included txs will stay in the pool of unconfirmed transaction until included in block or deadline reached.

I would see a couple of problems. First off for usability. I already hate it if blocks take longer than a minute. Imagine now I put my proper 1 NXT fee in, and then maybe my buy order or time-sensitive transaction doesn't go through because the current forgers want more. The whole thing would be come unreliable. Noob users would be baffled.

Secondly you would rely on the forgers to make the best decisions here. Someone with not even such a big balance could screw transaction times. Or allow spam. Or spam themselves - by accepting zero fee, but then sending a million transactions for their own block.
Or maybe they just set silly numbers because they're not well educated on NXT.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2015, 09:37:02 am »

If forgers are allowed to set minimum fees themselves, any rational forger will set minimum fee to zero.
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2015, 09:47:51 am »

If forgers are allowed to set minimum fees themselves, any rational forger will set minimum fee to zero.

Hm, I don't think so: no income, no incentive to forge.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2015, 09:55:41 am »

Excluding transactions below your minimum fee, even though there is still space in the block, means less income. Why take this risk? If there are more transactions that can fit in a block, you are still going to select the best paying ones with preference even if your minimum fee is zero. If there are fewer transactions that can fit, accepting those with 0.00001 fee is still better (for the forger, but not for the whole system) than not accepting them. I see a classical tragedy of the commons situation here.

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