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Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
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xiahui135

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Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« on: May 23, 2015, 03:12:08 pm »

The 1 nxt transaction fee is pegging the nxt market cap to a range.
When the marker cap is high, then the transaction fee (in fiat) is high. People will reduce usage of nxt. This will lead the price fall in a long term period.
When the market cap is low, then because the good design of nxt, people will increase usage of nxt. This make the price go up.
If nxt price to to 0.15 usd again, then the transaction fee will be 0.15 usd. It will be  almost not usable for average joe, and the price will fall.

As to the forgers, they only get so little return form forg now. Reduce the fee do not have that big inpact to them. In fact the trading volum goes up will make the forg income recover slowly.

As to the blockchain inflation, we should find other way to support massive adoption. If not, nxt is just a tool not for massive use. No matter the nxt price is, it is not that important to the world.
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blackyblack1

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2015, 03:42:44 pm »

Don't you think that this is designed this way intentionally? Maybe to stabilize NXT price over time...
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2015, 03:58:35 pm »

I agree with you on all you say, my idea is to wait for the voting in 1.5 to see what the forgers really think of it themselves.
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maddy83

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2015, 04:57:43 pm »

The 1 nxt transaction fee is pegging the nxt market cap to a range.
When the marker cap is high, then the transaction fee (in fiat) is high. People will reduce usage of nxt. This will lead the price fall in a long term period.
When the market cap is low, then because the good design of nxt, people will increase usage of nxt. This make the price go up.
If nxt price to to 0.15 usd again, then the transaction fee will be 0.15 usd. It will be  almost not usable for average joe, and the price will fall.

As to the forgers, they only get so little return form forg now. Reduce the fee do not have that big inpact to them. In fact the trading volum goes up will make the forg income recover slowly.

As to the blockchain inflation, we should find other way to support massive adoption. If not, nxt is just a tool not for massive use. No matter the nxt price is, it is not that important to the world.

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT. One could argue that lower transaction fee leads to blockchain bloat and harms NXT.

If you make a claim that $0.15 is "not usable for average joe", please explain how you come to this conclusion. Compare that to what current widely used payment systems (Visa, Paypal, etc) charge. Many payment systems take a certain percentage as a fee, not a flat fee, so it ends up being orders of magnitude higher than NXT fee, and people happily pay it. I would happily pay 1% of every transaction I make, if I had a payment system of "best of both worlds" (best features of crypto and wide acceptance of fiat).

And for trading, well, many people trade on exchanges, so NXT fee has zero effect on that. There is AE of course, and I can see the transaction fee adding up if you have a bot which executes lots of trades. But again, this has nothing to do with "average joe".
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maddy83

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2015, 05:04:55 pm »

How are accounts going to be biased in 1.5 for voting?

How is it decided that a single entity hasn't created lots of accounts to try and swing a vote?

1 NXT = 1 vote. Number of accounts makes no difference.
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xiahui135

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2015, 08:55:21 am »

The 1 nxt transaction fee is pegging the nxt market cap to a range.
When the marker cap is high, then the transaction fee (in fiat) is high. People will reduce usage of nxt. This will lead the price fall in a long term period.
When the market cap is low, then because the good design of nxt, people will increase usage of nxt. This make the price go up.
If nxt price to to 0.15 usd again, then the transaction fee will be 0.15 usd. It will be  almost not usable for average joe, and the price will fall.

As to the forgers, they only get so little return form forg now. Reduce the fee do not have that big inpact to them. In fact the trading volum goes up will make the forg income recover slowly.

As to the blockchain inflation, we should find other way to support massive adoption. If not, nxt is just a tool not for massive use. No matter the nxt price is, it is not that important to the world.

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT. One could argue that lower transaction fee leads to blockchain bloat and harms NXT.

If you make a claim that $0.15 is "not usable for average joe", please explain how you come to this conclusion. Compare that to what current widely used payment systems (Visa, Paypal, etc) charge. Many payment systems take a certain percentage as a fee, not a flat fee, so it ends up being orders of magnitude higher than NXT fee, and people happily pay it. I would happily pay 1% of every transaction I make, if I had a payment system of "best of both worlds" (best features of crypto and wide acceptance of fiat).

And for trading, well, many people trade on exchanges, so NXT fee has zero effect on that. There is AE of course, and I can see the transaction fee adding up if you have a bot which executes lots of trades. But again, this has nothing to do with "average joe".
No massive data. I myself like the asset exchange, but I hate place orders more frequencily. Because 0.01 usd fee is not cheap too.
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xiahui135

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2015, 09:06:03 am »

Expensive or not, is for the use case. For the decentralised exchange, it is too expensive.
In poloniex, there is large percentage of orders under 500 nxt. They will not like SAE, because the decentralized exchange is much expensive than the centered ones.

At this level of fee, even the instantDEX come out, this will not help much to nxt adoption.
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crimi

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2015, 09:26:12 am »

transfer 1 Nxt, pay 1 Nxt fee

This is the awkward moment you dont have with bitcoin or cash.
If i had see something like that on the street i would think its a scam.  :-X
Impossible to do marketing with that fee.


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bizz

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2015, 10:47:06 am »

I see 2 possible reasons for high fee: prevent spam/bloat and reward (rich) forgers.

1. Prevent spam or blockchain bloat
Is this an issue at all? All coins have low really low fee and they don't have spam  and if successful have same amount of blockchain bloat. If any crypto was to be mainstream successful it inevitably means thousands of tx per second so no fee will prevent bloat.  More likely fee will prevent being successful. IMO 99% of future users will use lite clients anyway. I'm already using lite clients on my local desktops and only have server as full node due to limited SSD space.
 
2. Forgers
This could be an issue due to no other reward from PoS. Maybe rich guys will keep servers and forge for low fees maybe not. I think being NXT rich makes some percent of you automatically wanting to protect your investment. Something like Pareto principle will probably work here so some percentage will never forge 24/7, some will always...some will hallmark, ddos protect and some not regardless of fees.

Edit: Just sent small amount of BTC and paid $0.06  fee. As long as NXT fees are less than BTC we're fine :D


« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 02:14:17 pm by bizz »
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xiahui135

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2015, 10:56:51 am »

At the current rate, when are you ever going to send someone just $0.011? Maybe as a website tip but I don't think it happens all that often. And I don't think we need to worry about third-world countries (at the moment) because I don't think they're the people investing in Nxt.
Lower the fee is not for the ones who invest in NXT, but the ones who use NXT.

What situation can NXT be used?
Money transfer just a small use case which is not that often.
But the decentralized exchange need lower fee to become stronger. It is expensive for trades under 500 nxt. (or even higher, because many times I place an order I have to cancel it. It cost something but the centralized ones not.)

If we keep the fee high, then some kind of applications will be hard to survive on the NXT chain. Such as MAIL\Chat\Trade
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maddy83

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2015, 01:40:42 pm »

No massive data. I myself like the asset exchange, but I hate place orders more frequencily. Because 0.01 usd fee is not cheap too.

But the decentralized exchange need lower fee to become stronger. It is expensive for trades under 500 nxt. (or even higher, because many times I place an order I have to cancel it. It cost something but the centralized ones not.)

So you want to place lots of orders on the AE... to run some arbitrage bot or something? I can see you want lower fees for that.

However, I don't see how you extend this to a claim that fees are holding back NXT adoption for the "average joe". The average joe is not a daytrader. He will place few trades on AE now and then, and will mostly hold assets for the long term.

Sure, the fee of 1 NXT might feel expensive for trades under 100 NXT, but why should we encourage such microtransactions? Dividend payments are a special case, but I understand that issue was already solved so that dividends can be sent to multiple recipients with one transaction.

The only benefit of lower fees in AE that I can see would be increased liquidity and smaller bid-ask-spread. I can see this would mostly help active traders and people who run bots, not the average joe. So please explain how is this holding back NXT?
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xiahui135

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2015, 02:17:54 pm »

No massive data. I myself like the asset exchange, but I hate place orders more frequencily. Because 0.01 usd fee is not cheap too.

But the decentralized exchange need lower fee to become stronger. It is expensive for trades under 500 nxt. (or even higher, because many times I place an order I have to cancel it. It cost something but the centralized ones not.)

So you want to place lots of orders on the AE... to run some arbitrage bot or something? I can see you want lower fees for that.

However, I don't see how you extend this to a claim that fees are holding back NXT adoption for the "average joe". The average joe is not a daytrader. He will place few trades on AE now and then, and will mostly hold assets for the long term.

Sure, the fee of 1 NXT might feel expensive for trades under 100 NXT, but why should we encourage such microtransactions? Dividend payments are a special case, but I understand that issue was already solved so that dividends can be sent to multiple recipients with one transaction.

The only benefit of lower fees in AE that I can see would be increased liquidity and smaller bid-ask-spread. I can see this would mostly help active traders and people who run bots, not the average joe. So please explain how is this holding back NXT?
I do not do arbitrage, and I am not a daytrader. I am just a small NXT investor.
I just check AE 2 or 3 time every week from 2 months ago. Sometimes I want to buy a asset. I place an order, it costs 1 nxt, even many times it does not make a deal. For my small trades, it is expensive to trade in the AE than poloniex.
I feel the 1 nxt fee is high, and will hesitate whether to place an order. When I want to cancel the order, I must pay another 1 NXT. Others will maybe feel the same. We may feel 1 nxt may value 1 USD, 10 USD in future, and we do not want spend nxt like this.
I am just a small investor, and I am here talk my feeling. I want NXT succeed, and the price go to the moon. But the system can not handle large scale trade data, it is so far from succeed. And the 1 nxt fee is one of the problem. (and the system capacity is another)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 02:25:01 pm by xiahui135 »
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maddy83

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2015, 04:17:17 pm »

I do not do arbitrage, and I am not a daytrader. I am just a small NXT investor.
I just check AE 2 or 3 time every week from 2 months ago. Sometimes I want to buy a asset. I place an order, it costs 1 nxt, even many times it does not make a deal. For my small trades, it is expensive to trade in the AE than poloniex.
I feel the 1 nxt fee is high, and will hesitate whether to place an order. When I want to cancel the order, I must pay another 1 NXT. Others will maybe feel the same. We may feel 1 nxt may value 1 USD, 10 USD in future, and we do not want spend nxt like this.
I am just a small investor, and I am here talk my feeling. I want NXT succeed, and the price go to the moon. But the system can not handle large scale trade data, it is so far from succeed. And the 1 nxt fee is one of the problem. (and the system capacity is another)

We all want NXT to succeed and "go to the moon". If lowering the fee helps, it should be done, no question about it. I just have trouble understanding your argument, because personally I have never felt that the fee of 1 NXT is a problem.

Having more trading and liquidity on the AE is a good thing for sure, and I can see that eventually helping the whole NXT economy, not just traders. The downside is that people who support the network get lower reward for their work. And then there's the problem of blockchain bloat to be solved. The current database is around 1.4 GB for me.
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2015, 07:54:19 pm »

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT.
Philosophically, a major benefit of PoS over PoW is its efficiency. However, it's hard to argue that while Nxt transactions are so expensive and Bitcoin transactions are free (if they satisfy conditions of coin age etc).
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maddy83

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2015, 06:25:20 am »

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT.
Philosophically, a major benefit of PoS over PoW is its efficiency. However, it's hard to argue that while Nxt transactions are so expensive and Bitcoin transactions are free (if they satisfy conditions of coin age etc).

You are comparing apples to oranges. PoW is constantly "printing money" in the form of block rewards. Minimal fees may work in PoW because miners are rewarded in any case, which is not the case in PoS.
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dsattler

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2015, 07:12:13 am »

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT.
Philosophically, a major benefit of PoS over PoW is its efficiency. However, it's hard to argue that while Nxt transactions are so expensive and Bitcoin transactions are free (if they satisfy conditions of coin age etc).

You are comparing apples to oranges. PoW is constantly "printing money" in the form of block rewards. Minimal fees may work in PoW because miners are rewarded in any case, which is not the case in PoS.

Yes!
And bitcoin tx are also not completely free when you want them confirmed in a reasonable time. IMHO this "pay more fees - get faster confirmation" model is not working well and shouldn't be used in a 2.0 crypto.
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Damelon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2015, 04:48:12 pm »

I'd like to see them lowered too over time, if only because 1 ct cán be a lot of money if we take off our western-centric glasses :)

But that's a personal preference.
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maddy83

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2015, 06:53:34 pm »

The poor people of Africa (and other continents) weren't forgotten by me. It would make me immensely happy to see them convert to crypto. Their currencies are much worse than USD or EUR with things like inflation, corruption and other problems. They probably need crypto a lot more than we westerners do. I'm just saying that we probably need to win over the west first.

The discussion about lowering the fees has been an ongoing issue on the forums for as long as I remember. We have seen lots of arguments for and against, and lots of opinions and beliefs, but very little concrete facts. I'm open to lowering the fees, keeping them same, or even raising them. I wish the people who say the fee should be lowered would present something concrete, like a calculation of how lowering the fees to 0.5 NXT does X and Y and helps increase NXT adoption by Z%.

It's probably not a good idea to hold a vote until the issue has been researched a bit more, and facts are presented to people who do the voting. Voting doesn't work if people don't have reasonable knowledge of the issue they are voting for.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2015, 07:02:52 pm »

Voting doesn't work if people don't have reasonable knowledge of the issue they are voting for.

That would be so nice... if people would educate them before voting... :D

But on topic, I would really like to see that we could start with adding "fee" to http://localhost:7876/nxt?requestType=getConstants

For now, everyone using Nxt is hardcoding the fee, it will lead to an immense change as soon as we are planning to change the fees. So adding them to getConstants or make an own API for "getFee" and add "standard" (currently = 100000000 NQT), "issueCurrency", "issuePoll" and so on

jl777

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2015, 07:12:56 pm »

The poor people of Africa (and other continents) weren't forgotten by me. It would make me immensely happy to see them convert to crypto. Their currencies are much worse than USD or EUR with things like inflation, corruption and other problems. They probably need crypto a lot more than we westerners do. I'm just saying that we probably need to win over the west first.

The discussion about lowering the fees has been an ongoing issue on the forums for as long as I remember. We have seen lots of arguments for and against, and lots of opinions and beliefs, but very little concrete facts. I'm open to lowering the fees, keeping them same, or even raising them. I wish the people who say the fee should be lowered would present something concrete, like a calculation of how lowering the fees to 0.5 NXT does X and Y and helps increase NXT adoption by Z%.

It's probably not a good idea to hold a vote until the issue has been researched a bit more, and facts are presented to people who do the voting. Voting doesn't work if people don't have reasonable knowledge of the issue they are voting for.
the country with the highest percentage of electronic money use is?
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Damelon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2015, 07:13:42 pm »

I sympathise with what you're saying about $0.01, Damelon, but as I mentioned earlier: at this point in time I don't think there are many people from struggling (or third world) countries using NXT. I could be wrong.

When Nxt becomes more popular and the fee is lowered I expect this is when people from less developed countries would be getting on board.

To me this is turning it around: it's making it harder for them to use it. In your example, they first need to prove they want to use it, thén we would decide to lower it.

That's the same as a baker first selling bread expensive to see whether there is demand and then lowering the price ;)

I am not hung up on ANY price, as long as it's at the sweet spot of discouraging (most) spamming ánd allowing maximum use for the widest spread of users. I really think we have a blind spot to the developing world, too. Crypto as a currency for instance makes *much* more sense where it really solves an immediate problem than here, where that problem is not seen at all by the majority of users.

The only real problem I can see is that if we lower the fees later that we will have to deal with many more stakeholders, which will make it much, múch more difficult (see bitcoin changes for that kind of viper's nest situations)
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Damelon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2015, 07:16:11 pm »

The discussion about lowering the fees has been an ongoing issue on the forums for as long as I remember. We have seen lots of arguments for and against, and lots of opinions and beliefs, but very little concrete facts. I'm open to lowering the fees, keeping them same, or even raising them. I wish the people who say the fee should be lowered would present something concrete, like a calculation of how lowering the fees to 0.5 NXT does X and Y and helps increase NXT adoption by Z%.

It's probably not a good idea to hold a vote until the issue has been researched a bit more, and facts are presented to people who do the voting. Voting doesn't work if people don't have reasonable knowledge of the issue they are voting for.

I agree and also share your view that lowering or raising is not the issue: those are a means to an end, and we need to at least think of possible scenarios and see where that leads us.
Lowering could well have negative secondary effects that we don't calculate right now and it's a well known fact that products sometimes start to sell more when the price is raised.
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maddy83

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2015, 08:03:26 pm »

the country with the highest percentage of electronic money use is?

I have no idea, please educate me. And while you are here, what is your opinion on the transfer fees? Do you think the fees should be lowered or not?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2015, 08:13:08 pm »

I really think we have a blind spot to the developing world, too. Crypto as a currency for instance makes *much* more sense where it really solves an immediate problem than here, where that problem is not seen at all by the majority of users.

Maybe that's the ultimate problem we have with crypto in western countries. We like to hate our fiat currencies all day in these crypto forums, but the reality is that at the end of the day, they're pretty good. Like you said, many people will never switch to crypto based on the argument that it solves a problem which they don't perceive to be a problem. Maybe, then, the solution is do the opposite of what I said, and actually target poor countries with crypto marketing? :)
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2015, 08:21:58 pm »

I really think we have a blind spot to the developing world, too. Crypto as a currency for instance makes *much* more sense where it really solves an immediate problem than here, where that problem is not seen at all by the majority of users.

Maybe that's the ultimate problem we have with crypto in western countries. We like to hate our fiat currencies all day in these crypto forums, but the reality is that at the end of the day, they're pretty good. Like you said, many people will never switch to crypto based on the argument that it solves a problem which they don't perceive to be a problem. Maybe, then, the solution is do the opposite of what I said, and actually target poor countries with crypto marketing? :)

It certainly couldn't hurt at least to look at them.
There's a world of real actual good to be done in terms of making things easier for people there, added to the fact that if crypto can prove to be of use to people there, it will also get a múch more positive press over hére.

To me, that's a win-win.

The infrastructure is also already there in the form of networks like M-pesa and others like it, so it's something I would truly like to see, currency-wise.

For the "West", smart contracts and other blockchain uses seem far more useful, because they benefit our businesses.

Square peg, square hole. :)
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Tosch110

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2015, 08:25:13 pm »

Maybe, then, the solution is do the opposite of what I said, and actually target poor countries with crypto marketing? :)

Lets have a first start with stop calling them "poor countries" :)

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2015, 09:55:39 am »

Maybe, then, the solution is do the opposite of what I said, and actually target poor countries with crypto marketing? :)

Lets have a first start with stop calling them "poor countries" :)

Why? I don't see that there is anything offensive in calling a poor country poor. I don't think we want to go too deep into political correctness where we have to be careful of each word we type because we are so scared someone might be offended. A lot of the outside world operates like that already, and it is literally insane.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2015, 07:58:41 pm »

Philosophically, a major benefit of PoS over PoW is its efficiency. However, it's hard to argue that while Nxt transactions are so expensive and Bitcoin transactions are free (if they satisfy conditions of coin age etc).

You are comparing apples to oranges. PoW is constantly "printing money" in the form of block rewards. Minimal fees may work in PoW because miners are rewarded in any case, which is not the case in PoS.
That's a temporary situation. As the block-reward halves, Bitcoin will depend less on inflation to fund itself. As long as transaction volume doubles at the same rate, the Bitcoin fees can remain low/free indefinitely.

And also, I'm talking here about marketing and image. The free transactions are very visible in Bitcoin, and the inflationary cost are hidden, so Bitcoin looks cheaper to use whether or not it actually is. I feel that the efficiency of PoS is one of the killer advantages of Nxt over Bitcoin, and as such should be trumpeted in our PR, and having fees that are actually lower would surely help in that.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2015, 08:09:54 pm »

And also if you're using a Bitcoin wallet with small funds in a few change addresses to make one Tx then the fee goes up. Sending NXT is always a set Tx fee (unless you manually choose to pay more).

So: a variable Tx fee dependant on the size of broadcast Tx (Bitcoin) = confusion for newbies, which is what this thread is talking about mitigating.
It is? I think you're the first person to mention mitigating newbie confusion in this thread. And I don't think there's any real confusion anyway. When you create a Bitcoin transaction, the system tells you a recommended fee and adds it on automatically. Note that Nxt fees vary too, depending on the type of transaction.

I'm not advocating free transactions based on coin age for Nxt, though. It's not as useful when you have single accounts rather than multiple addresses.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2015, 08:22:06 pm »

A high base fee:
  • Discourages spam.
  • Encourages forging.
  • Discourages use.
I don't think the second point is an issue. The third point is. So the base fee should be lowered to the minimum level where they still discourage spam. I have no idea what that level is; I think that's a technical question that should be answered by experts, not by everyone voting. It's tricky because spam is more of a burden to people running small nodes. I suspect that those people also have small balances and hence don't get much revenue from forging to offset the costs. That's another reason "vote by NXT balance" is probably not the best way to decide.
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xiahui135

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2015, 09:23:43 am »

The key features need to be designed to allow mass adoption at early stage, or it will be hard to modify when we get lot of users.
The 1 nxt fee is too expensive when Nxt market cap reach above 100M. It will be not so usable then, and this will be a factor of price crash.
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LocoMB

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2015, 11:56:59 am »

The key features need to be designed to allow mass adoption at early stage, or it will be hard to modify when we get lot of users.
The 1 nxt fee is too expensive when Nxt market cap reach above 100M. It will be not so usable then, and this will be a factor of price crash.

Indeed!

With increasing adoption and diversification of Nxt related projects, this is rapidly becoming an issue!
Currently, the fee structure is quite undifferentiated: 1 Nxt for almost all transaction types.
This has the potential to provide serious obstacles for certain use cases, e.g. message based services in poor countries, where even at the current Nxt price this is already borderline prohibitive.

Can anybody queue me in on the current status of the discussion?
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Damelon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2015, 12:48:21 pm »

I would also like to add to this discussion again.

Currently, we are getting people from the developing world looking at Nxt and they are seriously hampered by our fees on a few transactions, to wit

  • trading transactions for AE and MS
  • Voting
  • DGS Transactions
  • Token Transactions

While to us 1 Nxt may seem a small amount of money, in their local economies our transactions quickly become prohibitive.

Case in point: a voting system for an African country: current cost about $100-200, with Nxt (for about 6 million votes to be cast): $60,000.

That gap is just too wide, éven if they really want to use us.

I would like to propose the following model, taking into account anti-spam measures:

1. Make entry fees into the system higher, ie. make the base fees for creating Assets, MS Currencies (the lower two tiers) and setting up a Vote higher.
Rationale: The fee for setting up an Asset currently is 1000 Nxt or about $10. The same goes for setting up a 4 or 5 character MS Currency. Setting up a Vote is 10 Nxt or $ 0.10.
From a standpoint of anti-spam this is low. From a standpoint of expected returns of a legit Asset or Currency or Vote, it's also low.
The cost should not be prohibitive, but can be significantly higher in my opinion. Entry costs are a one time fee and are much, much easier to bear and explain.

2. Significantly lower trading costs across the board. This also goes more broadly for any transaction you can make in the system after you paid an entry fee, like casting a Vote. (This is for future reference if we create features that also work with entry fee/transaction models).
Rationale: The current cost is simply too high for serious people looking at using Nxt. In this, we are simply thinking too small. To be a serious contender, we must be looking at a higher volume of transactions. In fact, we are being approached by companies wanting to be able to do a relatively high number of transactions.

2.1 In addition to lowering the fees, I would like the dev team to work (if they aren't already) on ways to increase transaction volume within the possibilities. I ask this very specifically because at the current parameters, we run a risk of very quickly running out of transaction space if we catch even one big partner. One may argue that Bitcoin doesn't have this problem yet, but Nxt has such a large abundance of possible transactions that once something like the Voting System gets used at scale, block will be filled up very, véry soon (I refer to it being used in for instance a developing country, and this is a serious possibility!). If possible, scale ASAP!
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Sebastien256

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2015, 01:19:29 pm »

It would be nice to have lower fee, what is ETA on this?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2015, 01:50:48 pm »

For 1.7 we will work on white label blockchains, and prunable blockchains. Then we can consider lowering fees for transactions on those side chains if such transactions can be pruned away.

For 1.6, the fees for permanent messages will actually increase a lot. This is to force migration to prunable, there is no reason for people to continue using permanent messages now that prunable are available.

ScripterRon is working on a feature that will allow any node that wants to do it to act as backup service provider, i.e. be set to store prunable messages and data indefinitely, and advertise that it provides this service. Peers that are configured to store prunable messages longer than the two weeks minimum, will automatically look up and connect to such nodes when downloading block data, and this way be guaranteed to be able to receive the already expired (on other nodes) prunable data.

Since providing this service will be voluntary and not needed for the blockchain consensus, those who want to rely on having such backup/archival service nodes always available should think of a way to reward those who run them.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2015, 02:01:49 pm »

1. Make entry fees into the system higher, ie. make the base fees for creating Assets, MS Currencies (the lower two tiers) and setting up a Vote higher.
Rationale: The fee for setting up an Asset currently is 1000 Nxt or about $10. The same goes for setting up a 4 or 5 character MS Currency. Setting up a Vote is 10 Nxt or $ 0.10.
From a standpoint of anti-spam this is low. From a standpoint of expected returns of a legit Asset or Currency or Vote, it's also low.
The cost should not be prohibitive, but can be significantly higher in my opinion. Entry costs are a one time fee and are much, much easier to bear and explain.

Gets my vote

For 1.6, the fees for permanent messages will actually increase a lot. This is to force migration to prunable, there is no reason for people to continue using permanent messages now that prunable are available.

Also agree

 ;D  Just my 2 NXT
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2015, 02:40:50 pm »

Hi Guys,

This is Nick of NXT 2 PAY - I was at Pay Expo this year as a booth holder on NXT and Bas kindly pointed me to this thread as it is something we have been discussing, based on real customer needs for NXT. As some background we currently have a cash based mobile money platform (which is the core of NXT 2 PAY) running in Namibia via a partner VTS ( www. newera.com.na/2015/07/03/bon-awards-vts-licence-issue-e-money/ ) You will notice in the press release the reference to mobile money and 'Tokens'.

For my part I see there needs to be a variable rate per service. However to keep this short and to the point I have a real world use case that needs an answer otherwise we lose a massive opportunity.

So we want to issue an MS token for use in Namibia. The aim is to map mobile money transactions (and the internal "Tokens') using the MS token so that all transactions can be ledgered on to the blockchain. Given the huge potential blockchain technology and NXT has for emerging economies and to facilitate financial inclusion to the unbanked, by eliminating fraud and corruption inherent in cash environments, we need to make it compelling for them to use.

So the issue is this. Whilst we in the west with a fairly stable economy and reasonable exchange rate can easily afford 1NXT per transaction when that 1 NXT = 15 - 25 cents on the dollar in Namibia and you then have to include any other transaction fees (depending on the use case) then it become extremely prohibitive to operate NXT in an area that could very easily adopt it, benefit from it and provide a huge upside to NXT as a whole.

We have an opportunity to roll this out to a whole country via mobile money partners with the potential for it to be fully endorsed for use by regulators. This would be huge for NXT, but it would also enable so many other benefits and real use cases to be evolved.

So my case is this, if transaction fees for MS tokens are not reduced then it becomes prohibitive to provide this technology to the people who can benefit most from it.

As I see it there is no point having a solution to save the world if the people it intends to save can't really afford it. These emerging economies, the 2.5 Billion unbanked can use NXT and MS tokens to gain financial inclusion, but if they are using it to pay for critical services or basic transactions at their local store then in Namibia alone 15-20 cents per transaction when they may only be earning 1 - 5 dollars a week becomes extremely expensive.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2015, 03:21:19 pm »

For 1.7 we will work on white label blockchains, and prunable blockchains. Then we can consider lowering fees for transactions on those side chains if such transactions can be pruned away.

For 1.6, the fees for permanent messages will actually increase a lot. This is to force migration to prunable, there is no reason for people to continue using permanent messages now that prunable are available.

ScripterRon is working on a feature that will allow any node that wants to do it to act as backup service provider, i.e. be set to store prunable messages and data indefinitely, and advertise that it provides this service. Peers that are configured to store prunable messages longer than the two weeks minimum, will automatically look up and connect to such nodes when downloading block data, and this way be guaranteed to be able to receive the already expired (on other nodes) prunable data.

Since providing this service will be voluntary and not needed for the blockchain consensus, those who want to rely on having such backup/archival service nodes always available should think of a way to reward those who run them.

A vote could still be made to know if the base fee could be reduce. idk, what about a vote for cutting the base fee in half for Next hardfork 1.6?

Edit: Are there specific technical reasons not to lower fee on next hardfork? Nxt is barely use at the moment.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 03:30:52 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2015, 03:22:18 pm »

We need pruning of MS transactions that do not affect NXT balances (other than the fee). That is, as an intermediate step, if we can't do full prunable sidechain implementation.

Without pruning I don't see a scalable way to have a single blockchain with fees that are low enough for African countries, yet high enough to prevent spammers from Western countries. Even if we ignore the spam issue, as there is a limited space for transactions in a block and forgers will prefer to include transactions that come with higher fees, those that can afford it will pay more to get included in the block, and squeeze out those who pay just the minimum. Allowing more transactions per block can scale only if most of the data from those transactions can be pruned, and not only pruned but made optional, i.e. not needed at the time of block download (because otherwise you will run into problems with fork resolution for peers on slower networks).

We need to finish the features planned for 1.6 now, but for 1.7 indeed pruning and side chains should be a priority.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2015, 03:43:34 pm »

I'd actually like to see the MS transactions use a fraction of the MS currency as the transaction fee and not NXT.

This would allow different countries using MS to have fees paid at an amount scaled to their currency values and not restricting all different MS currency transactions to the same NXT value fees.

This would also make it easier for people familiar with bitcoin like chains to use MS currencies because the rules would be similar rather than having to tell them they need to buy NXT tokens to send their ABCDE coins.  As a forger, I wouldn't have any issues processing a transaction for a MS fee.  I still have the option of putting the MS fees up for sale.

Perhaps make it an option for forgers:  Only include transactions with NXT fees, Include transactions with MS fees...
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2015, 03:46:30 pm »

@Jean-Luc

you don't see any place where we can lower the fees right now? is there, in your opinion, a spam issue imminent if we go any lower?
africa aside, is there no room to go to 0.5 nxt standard transaction fee? 0.6-0.9?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2015, 04:04:28 pm »

As long as fees are in consensus set by the forging algorithm, there will always be a way to undercut them, resulting in even more bloat potentially..
see https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/about-transaction-fees

The right question is not how much should the transaction fee be, but who should set it?
https://nxtportal.org/polls/2799041280732484164
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2015, 05:56:31 pm »

As I see it there is no point having a solution to save the world if the people it intends to save can't really afford it. These emerging economies, the 2.5 Billion unbanked can use NXT and MS tokens to gain financial inclusion, but if they are using it to pay for critical services or basic transactions at their local store then in Namibia alone 15-20 cents per transaction when they may only be earning 1 - 5 dollars a week becomes extremely expensive.

Could you explain why someone who makes 1-5 dollars a week has a need for his transaction to be on a global blockchain and what means he has to achieve this (i.e. how is he going to cryptographically sign and broadcast his transanction)?

If it's a regular everyday transaction ("basic transactions at their local store" - hand to hand) I don't see the point and if it's a larger transaction that needs to be verifiable on the blockchain the current fee of $0.0124 is justifiable in my opinion. If that becomes ten times more (as yours mentioned 15 - 25 cents) then there will be strong incentive to lower the fee, now there is not.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2015, 06:06:42 pm »

As long as fees are in consensus set by the forging algorithm, there will always be a way to undercut them, resulting in even more bloat potentially..
see https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/about-transaction-fees

The right question is not how much should the transaction fee be, but who should set it?
https://nxtportal.org/polls/2799041280732484164

The poll can't be fair with a vote system by NXT balance. Big Holders ( Forger ;p ) are going to choose option 1 for sure.
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Damelon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2015, 06:10:26 pm »

As I see it there is no point having a solution to save the world if the people it intends to save can't really afford it. These emerging economies, the 2.5 Billion unbanked can use NXT and MS tokens to gain financial inclusion, but if they are using it to pay for critical services or basic transactions at their local store then in Namibia alone 15-20 cents per transaction when they may only be earning 1 - 5 dollars a week becomes extremely expensive.

Could you explain why someone who makes 1-5 dollars a week has a need for his transaction to be on a global blockchain and what means he has to achieve this (i.e. how is he going to cryptographically sign and broadcast his transanction)?

If it's a regular everyday transaction ("basic transactions at their local store" - hand to hand) I don't see the point and if it's a larger transaction that needs to be verifiable on the blockchain the current fee of $0.0124 is justifiable in my opinion. If that becomes ten times more (as yours mentioned 15 - 25 cents) then there will be strong incentive to lower the fee, now there is not.

To me this is an example of "currency-centric" thinking about the blockchain.

It would make no sense when you talk about a monetary transaction using the main currency. His usecase is about mapping mobile money transactions however, of which there are a LOT in Africa.
So not a direct transaction, but using the blockchain to map them. It's about eliminating corruption and fraud, and that's a big issue there and a HUGE use case.

I don't know how well up to date you are with the developments in mobile money in Africa, but it's many factors larger than over here. It's also a very safe way to spend money in an environment rife with corruption. It makes sense to offer a service that cuts down corruption, fraud and remittance fees there, more than over here at least where there will be an uphill battle.

Furthermore: they have already expressed interest! This is not theory, it is already happening. From a purely common sense point of view: it PAYS to listen to the industry when they come knocking at your door with a very specific use case.  :)
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2015, 06:17:06 pm »

The poll can't be fair with a vote system by NXT balance. Big Holders ( Forger ;p ) are going to choose option 1 for sure.
I don't know what your definition of fair is, but in Proof Of Stake it sure does make sense that the stakeholders could at least show their opinions coupled to their stake...
Whether the current developer team respects these wishes and feels called upon to implement them is another question.

About voting by nxt balance or by account and accepting the risk of coming across arrogantly:
educate yourself as it is not my duty to retype everything every time.  ;)

So far not one whale has voted btw...
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2015, 07:53:47 pm »

As I see it there is no point having a solution to save the world if the people it intends to save can't really afford it. These emerging economies, the 2.5 Billion unbanked can use NXT and MS tokens to gain financial inclusion, but if they are using it to pay for critical services or basic transactions at their local store then in Namibia alone 15-20 cents per transaction when they may only be earning 1 - 5 dollars a week becomes extremely expensive.
Is 15-20 cents the current local price, or are you supposing a 10-fold increase in NXT market cap?

What kind of reduction do you think we need? It sounds like halving wouldn't be enough, and you'd need 1/10th or 1/100th.

The poll can't be fair with a vote system by NXT balance. Big Holders ( Forger ;p ) are going to choose option 1 for sure.
The big holders also have the most to gain from Nxt long term success. Their gains from forging are currently insignificant (under 1% a year), especially when compared to the potential gain from an increase in market cap due to increased demand due to increased usage. Also, if the volume of transaction increased 10-fold, that would compensate for a 1/10th reduction in average fee.

Also, the big forgers are more able to invest in economies of scale, so they are more able to pay the increased real-world costs of bandwidth and storage. It's the little forgers running full nodes on Raspberry Pi's that will be hurt most by block-chain bloat.

I'd actually like to see the MS transactions use a fraction of the MS currency as the transaction fee and not NXT.

This would allow different countries using MS to have fees paid at an amount scaled to their currency values and not restricting all different MS currency transactions to the same NXT value fees.
What would stop me creating a worthless currency and then getting all my transactions effectively for free forever?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2015, 08:19:18 pm »

What would stop me creating a worthless currency and then getting all my transactions effectively for free forever?
For example forgers' rule to process only limited set of MS currencies.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2015, 09:37:24 pm »

Hi Guys,

great comments.

The one i particularly like is using MS token % as the fee.

Ultimately the drive to adoption and the consensus of the future is that the blockchain would be in the background. This has a number of connotations in use and perspective. Blockchain and lets say the Bitcoin mentality is to replace banking by peer to peer transactions that have no middle man. But in reality to get to that you need to build bridges. Therefore by working with incumbents to enhance and develop existing systems you can develop an iterative roadmap. Technical development tends to accelerate out of real world use and that therefore needs real world users. In emerging markets they have less incumbent infrastructure at a level equal to the western world. This offers the ability to enable a step change in methodology and practice.

What is incumbent in emerging economies is fraud and corruption. Take humanitarian causes, charity donations etc. if by working within the existing regulatory framework, such as KYC, could enable charitable funds to be distributed to the ultimate beneficiary thereby eliminating fraud, loss of funds, etc in the middle then there is a huge humanitarian benefit.

Mobile money is very big in africa and developing economies as they don't have the infrastructure or connectivity / access to what we know as traditional financial tools to be enable widespread financial inclusion. also by nature of those emerging economies they are more wild west. As I see it the Blockchain has the ability to provide a transparency and audit of financial transactions, but given their need for new technology and the rapid growth of new infrastructure, the ability to develop first world solutions in a market that is ripe for change, development and investment. Therefore these markets offer a huge opportunity to rapidly develop and mature blockchain technology so it can be then effectively reintroduced to western countries once it has been stress tested, developed and had a whole lot of real world users who would effectively use it not necessarily knowing it is there supporting their services, but providing the benefit of anti fraud and corruption by nature of being a public record.

The opportunity now is to deploy in these markets. Once in those markets it then opens up the ability to facilitate things like low cost international remittance, show how it can work in a regulated environment and then steer change through real world use. Additionally there is a kind of gold rush state where other technology providers are looking to get in to these markets and that provides partnership opportunities and a way to mature and develop the community development of NXT.

This is not a one time fix all scenario. We are in an iterative development cycle that needs practical application and a long term vision. I believe it gives NXT the opportunity to move forward and develop the core fundamentals to support mass adoption, but that in reality won't come from Europe, USA or Asia, at the moment. It will come by providing it to people and countries that need the benefits that come with an immutable record and transparency.

in order to do that it needs to be started within existing frameworks, provided by trusted partners that are already vetted and operating within finical regulation for the management, distribution and operation of financial systems, but then provides a level of accountability.

This, I believe, is how the model to full scale adoption and the development of new features and services can be harnessed, encouraged and adopted in a real practical sense.

therefore anything that can be done to encourage this can provide the long term stability and adoption of NXT and other blockchain technology in to the wider uses that i believe we can all see and feel.

For me this is a Global solution, therefore raises global issues as it is fundamentally based on a currency model and inherently tied to FIAT currency. But in 1, , 3 years time this can look very different. Long term vision is critical, but I agree that whatever solutions can be applied also need to take account for those who will look to game the system.

This is no longer theory, but being driven by market forces and people, businesses and governments who would like to adopt this technology. Therefore if NXT is wanting to work in this way then it needs to be understanding and open to many different needs. The beauty is that there are a number of opportunities. The worry is that they will not be able to be realised.

A case in point is that M-Pesa in Kenya transacts roughly $2Bn USD / month - if NXT can support other mobile money services, with regulated partners, to provide a trusted and transparent service in other jurisdictions then it can facilitate financial inclusion and interaction between disparate groups globally. The only way to do that is to start.. Now is the time to start.


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dude

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2015, 11:12:55 pm »

Hi Guys,

...

This is all great... ...wall of text explaining nothing.

I'm all for adoption and real world use of Nxt, but it has to be reasonable and make sense. Give us technical background of how things should work and what do you need, so far I can't tell what you are actually doing or what is needed from the devs.

If it's just to lower the fee and then you are able to fill the blockchain and make Nxt widely used, I don't see a reason why not to. Something tells me it's probably not like that?

I don't understand these marketing texts (same goes for Damelon), that sound like a sales pitch to investors, with no technical information of how is it all supposed to work, how good is that in here?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2015, 11:28:25 pm »

Hi Guys,

...

This is all great... ...wall of text explaining nothing.

I'm all for adoption and real world use of Nxt, but it has to be reasonable and make sense. Give us technical background of how things should work and what do you need, so far I can't tell what you are actually doing or what is needed from the devs.

If it's just to lower the fee and then you are able to fill the blockchain and make Nxt widely used, I don't see a reason why not to. Something tells me it's probably not like that?

I don't understand these marketing texts (same goes for Damelon), that sound like a sales pitch to investors, with no technical information of how is it all supposed to work, how good is that in here?

How about this then:

1. We have people wanting to use Nxt for real life purposes.
2. These people live in a part of the world where the height of the tx fees is prohibitive and counterproductive.
3. These people are real and have a lot of end-users.
4. We are trying to bring across the point that the current tx are hampering adoption.

I am not a technical person, I am working to get Nxt adoption. To judge me on that level is not helpful and missing the point.
I see this attitude more often from tech oriented people: you are missing the clear point that at a certain time, you cannot just think in technical terms anymore.

I am trying to open up the discussion. I am not saying "Do this or we'll fail."

I ám pointing out there are REAL people coming to us with REAL use cases which at this point we cannot do. Not because the network can't handle it per se, but because the fee is not well aligned for them.

And to dismiss that as "marketing texts" bespeaks a level of condescence that I frankly find insulting.

We're working to make Nxt useful, and these are use cases that come along. So we need to take them seriously.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2015, 11:47:58 pm »

I'd actually like to see the MS transactions use a fraction of the MS currency as the transaction fee and not NXT.

This would allow different countries using MS to have fees paid at an amount scaled to their currency values and not restricting all different MS currency transactions to the same NXT value fees.
What would stop me creating a worthless currency and then getting all my transactions effectively for free forever?
For example forgers' rule to process only limited set of MS currencies.
In other words, more technical  :), allow a new type of MS, which cost 0 nxt to create and uses its own unit as transaction fee, but is still being forged according to the nxts forging algoritm AND POS of nxt.

The forgers, by standard, do not support any of these MS-coins.
(Though Maybe these MS can have a trial period where when they get launched they do get supported for the first X KB or Blocks by all forgers.)

The forgers that explicitly, in their config file, choose to support certain of these MS get the burden of saving the those blockchains for those MS, based on how much nxt they have compared to the other forgers of that coin.

When they generate a block, they only get the MS coin transaction fee, and no nxt.
(although if the MS get value, as one bids on them in nxt, you can sell those fees for nxt)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 11:52:06 pm by TheCoinWizard »
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dude

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2015, 12:28:52 am »

How about this then:

1. We have people wanting to use Nxt for real life purposes.
2. These people live in a part of the world where the height of the tx fees is prohibitive and counterproductive.
3. These people are real and have a lot of end-users.
4. We are trying to bring across the point that the current tx are hampering adoption.

I am not a technical person, I am working to get Nxt adoption. To judge me on that level is not helpful and missing the point.
I see this attitude more often from tech oriented people: you are missing the clear point that at a certain time, you cannot just think in technical terms anymore.

I am trying to open up the discussion. I am not saying "Do this or we'll fail."

I ám pointing out there are REAL people coming to us with REAL use cases which at this point we cannot do. Not because the network can't handle it per se, but because the fee is not well aligned for them.

And to dismiss that as "marketing texts" bespeaks a level of condescence that I frankly find insulting.

We're working to make Nxt useful, and these are use cases that come along. So we need to take them seriously.

That's all good and I did not mean in a bad way towards you, we need people that do marketing and I know you are doing great work.

It's not just being technical, but more to get to the point with clear reason instead of wall of text that tells nothing in the end.

It's simple really, just tell us:

1) what exactly you are trying to do and how exactly (technical details)
2) what needs to be done on the side of Nxt for this to work

I know the discussions here get sometimes all political and stuff, but shouldn't it rather be on the technical side of things?

In other words, more technical  :), allow a new type of MS, which cost 0 nxt to create and uses its own unit as transaction fee, but is still being forged according to the nxts forging algoritm AND POS of nxt.

This has been already discussed in other threads with some good ideas how this could work.

I'm honestly more interested in the technical side of things in Africa (as noone seems to care about this) than how to deal with fee in Nxt.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2015, 06:29:04 am »


Could you explain why someone who makes 1-5 dollars a week has a need for his transaction to be on a global blockchain and what means he has to achieve this (i.e. how is he going to cryptographically sign and broadcast his transanction)?

I interpret this as 'anybody being that poor should not have any business important enough to bother a blockchain with anyway, so why bother with such low end customers?'
This seems incredibly arrogant to me.

Care to dispel my misunderstanding?
 
Quote

If it's a regular everyday transaction ("basic transactions at their local store" - hand to hand) I don't see the point and if it's a larger transaction that needs to be verifiable on the blockchain the current fee of $0.0124 is justifiable in my opinion. If that becomes ten times more (as yours mentioned 15 - 25 cents) then there will be strong incentive to lower the fee, now there is not.

Same as above. Buying a soft drink or a bag of rice using a blockchain based payment system is something you sneer upon?
Maybe you typed before thinking, but that is exactly the case: In the economy we are discussing here, $0.0123 does in fact correspond to 0.25 currency units.
Hint: We are not discussing the USA here...
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 06:31:18 am by LocoMB »
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2015, 06:43:33 am »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2015, 07:16:35 am »

i think peolpe have made their points clear. we need numbers to play with now.
what fee (maybe in usd) does a certain use case need to work? nxt2pay? others? at what fee will spam become a threat?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2015, 10:03:28 am »

I've always thought the fee was too high. One of the main advantages of PoS is that it is much cheaper to maintain the network than PoW. Why not aim for 0.1cent or less? Most people in this forum are doing relatively large transactions for which 1 cent isn't a big deal, but there are plenty of applications where current fees are a deal killer. Getting an application on Nxt such as the ones that Damelon and NxtNick are talking about would be huge, increasing number of transactions and userbase and showing the world what can be done on Nxt.

Though I do understand what JeanLuc is saying about making things pruneable first. However, I'm not sure there's a lots of spam that will suddenly be sent if the fee was, say, 0.1Nxt; sure if the fee was miniscule this would be a problem but there are other PoS networks with small fees (Blackcoin min fee=0.0001 BC which is .0003cent) and I've seen no evidence that this has caused a problem.

In terms of forgers, the increased number of transactions will partly make up for transaction fee reduction. Plus, if Nxt becomes more widely used, then the value of Nxt will increase, more than offsetting reduced forging income.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2015, 10:27:32 am »

I'm honestly more interested in the technical side of things in Africa (as noone seems to care about this) than how to deal with fee in Nxt.
That is exactly what solves your africa-problem:
In other words, more technical  :), allow a new type of MS, which cost 0 nxt to create and uses its own unit as transaction fee, but is still being forged according to the nxts forging algoritm AND POS of nxt.
they can now create their own blockchain, for free, with their own 1 AfricaCoin as fee.

I doubt you understood my post.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2015, 11:29:07 am »

Could you explain why someone who makes 1-5 dollars a week has a need for his transaction to be on a global blockchain and what means he has to achieve this (i.e. how is he going to cryptographically sign and broadcast his transanction)?
I interpret this as 'anybody being that poor should not have any business important enough to bother a blockchain with anyway, so why bother with such low end customers?'
This seems incredibly arrogant to me.

Care to dispel my misunderstanding?

First of all, my main point is in the second part of the sentence, are you saying all of these people have a smartphone and unlimited access to internet anywhere?  If not, how is it going to work?

Same as above. Buying a soft drink or a bag of rice using a blockchain based payment system is something you sneer upon?
Maybe you typed before thinking, but that is exactly the case: In the economy we are discussing here, $0.0123 does in fact correspond to 0.25 currency units.
Hint: We are not discussing the USA here...

Second, tell me please the great world benefits of having a transaction that happenned hand to hand for a bag of rice on a global blockchain verifiable forever. It's not about sneering, it's about being reasonable.

$0.0123 is also Z$3.96, how that changes anything?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2015, 12:00:55 pm »

Could you explain why someone who makes 1-5 dollars a week has a need for his transaction to be on a global blockchain and what means he has to achieve this (i.e. how is he going to cryptographically sign and broadcast his transanction)?
I interpret this as 'anybody being that poor should not have any business important enough to bother a blockchain with anyway, so why bother with such low end customers?'
This seems incredibly arrogant to me.

Care to dispel my misunderstanding?

First of all, my main point is in the second part of the sentence, are you saying all of these people have a smartphone and unlimited access to internet anywhere?  If not, how is it going to work?

Same as above. Buying a soft drink or a bag of rice using a blockchain based payment system is something you sneer upon?
Maybe you typed before thinking, but that is exactly the case: In the economy we are discussing here, $0.0123 does in fact correspond to 0.25 currency units.
Hint: We are not discussing the USA here...

Second, tell me please the great world benefits of having a transaction that happenned hand to hand for a bag of rice on a global blockchain verifiable forever. It's not about sneering, it's about being reasonable.

$0.0123 is also Z$3.96, how that changes anything?

These people have access to basic phones and these transactions are being done by SMS.

It's a proven concept and is HUGE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa is one of the best examples.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/05/economist-explains-18

Why do this instead of cash? Because it's perceived as safer and easier.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2015, 12:05:19 pm »

I'd actually like to see the MS transactions use a fraction of the MS currency as the transaction fee and not NXT.

This would allow different countries using MS to have fees paid at an amount scaled to their currency values and not restricting all different MS currency transactions to the same NXT value fees.
What would stop me creating a worthless currency and then getting all my transactions effectively for free forever?
For example forgers' rule to process only limited set of MS currencies.
In other words, more technical  :), allow a new type of MS, which cost 0 nxt to create and uses its own unit as transaction fee, but is still being forged according to the nxts forging algoritm AND POS of nxt.

There would still be fees to setup the MS currency and possibly even higher setup fees than others to prevent people from randomly claiming MS currency codes for fun.  Setting up is one thing and shouldn't be free.  Making it easier (and in some cases cheaper) for people to use is the goal I had in mind.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2015, 12:12:08 pm »

These people have access to basic phones and these transactions are being done by SMS.

Where does the Nxt blockchain come into play then?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2015, 12:36:47 pm »

 
First of all, my main point is in the second part of the sentence, are you saying all of these people have a smartphone and unlimited access to internet anywhere?  If not, how is it going to work?

It is called a 'feature phone'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_phone
and is something that is widely distributed, even in developing/emerging economies. There are even more people there that own feature phones than have bank accounts or credit cards.
The payments are made with SMS.


Quote
Second, tell me please the great world benefits of having a transaction that happenned hand to hand for a bag of rice on a global blockchain verifiable forever. It's not about sneering, it's about being reasonable.

Yes, just as 640kB of memory should be enough for everyone  ::)

Quote
$0.0123 is also Z$3.96, how that changes anything?

That number as compared to the volume of the transaction and your income is what changes everything.
Again, for you a can of soda costs $1.23, and those $0.0123 makes that 1% of the TX volume.
For other people, a can of soda costs $0.123 and those $0.0123 make that 10% of the TX volume.
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dude

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2015, 12:59:44 pm »

The payments are made with SMS.

Elaborate please.

Yes, just as 640kB of memory should be enough for everyone  ::)

I feel like you are the one who "typed before thinking". (I'm aware of the quote)

That number as compared to the volume of the transaction and your income is what changes everything.
Again, for you a can of soda costs $1.23, and those $0.0123 makes that 1% of the TX volume.
For other people, a can of soda costs $0.123 and those $0.0123 make that 10% of the TX volume.

Exactly, that's why it doesn't make sense to use this technology for this type of transaction.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2015, 02:21:55 pm »


That number as compared to the volume of the transaction and your income is what changes everything.
Again, for you a can of soda costs $1.23, and those $0.0123 makes that 1% of the TX volume.
For other people, a can of soda costs $0.123 and those $0.0123 make that 10% of the TX volume.

Exactly, that's why it doesn't make sense to use this technology for this type of transaction.

Unless the fee is reduced, opening up Nxt to more applications and greater userbase.

Of course scaling has to be considered, but it's better to get as many users as we can while working in parallel to make sure everything can scale. No point in waiting to get perfect and forgetting about what users want, then by that time all the users will already be on other platforms.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2015, 03:23:24 pm »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2015, 03:48:16 pm »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.

Floating point is not a issue with Nxt. I think changing fee might just be a matter of changing some constants in the code.
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galeki

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2015, 04:19:22 pm »

I don't know fee is too low or too high, just feel a little weird.

If I write a app which make one action a block, I'll need 1440x365=525600NXT a year as fee. That's too high.

So definitely developers don't want me to do that.

The only acceptable frequency is about one action per hour which about 24x365=8760NXT a year.


We promote NXT as platform so much, but the fee is rule out a lots of possibility already. :(

 
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #69 on: July 23, 2015, 04:24:15 pm »

Lower transaction fees will create many possibilities to extend the Nxt platform into new areas.

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #70 on: July 23, 2015, 04:53:39 pm »

Lower transaction fees will create many possibilities to extend the Nxt platform into new areas.
For example?
What new areas are available with 0,5 NXT fee? 0,1 NXT?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2015, 04:56:56 pm »

Lower transaction fees will create many possibilities to extend the Nxt platform into new areas.
For example?
What new areas are available with 0,5 NXT fee? 0,1 NXT?

That is to be discover  ;D
However, I'm sure some people can name a fews.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2015, 05:04:13 pm »

The Solution in Africa works in a very simple way.

Users are either banked or unbanked.

They can register for a simple mobile money service using either a standard feature phone text / SMS, Smart Phone or web site.

When they register in any way they are created an NXT wallet and if they have a bank account this can be linked to their mobile money account as well.

By SMS we can use a number of techniques such as one time pin and IVR or other techniques to verify transactions, where we manage the private keys of the wallets. Why do we do this - because the users are illiterate and using an old feature phone so would be impossible otherwise, unless anyone can think of another way.

To get the widest adoption of a service it needs to work via 2G SMS as this is the lowest common denominator. i.e. areas with no 3G / 4G / LTE or Wifi or Sat Link.

The reason they use mobile money can be to pay for basic things such as water, sewerage, electricity, simply because it costs more to get on a bus to travel to the nearest township to pay the bill.

The reason to provide mobile money, it enables financial inclusion, the delivery of other financial services, such as reward per read for things such as world health organisation messages.

the reason to use Blockchain. Because there is a high degree of fraud and corruption. By being able to show proof of funds within minutes opens up huge opportunities for charities, government and business where money goes missing in the middle.

The Gates foundation (love it or hate it) has benchmarked mobile money as the biggest enabler / thing to watch over the next 15 years.

If Blockchain and decentralised currency systems want to actually work and provide a solution to a reasonable number of people, not just a few who can be fathom how to download and install a client and then have the capacity to download the blockchain, then it needs real world applications.

In the UK, Europe, US etc there are some many barriers to real adoption. Bitcoin has a loud speaker wherever you go and in reality not many people are actually using crypto currency on a day to day trading basis. Therefore in my opinion it stunts growth as it ends up being a bunch of nice ideas thought out as being a good idea possibly,then built and trying to find someone to use it.

Namibia has 2 million population, a forward thinking central bank, willing to look at blockchain technology, endorse it (possibly) and look at actually implementing all the theoretical use cases every other person spouts out at blockchain events without a real solution or answer to the question.

NXT has the opportunity to at least do a version 1 real life proof of concept / production launched application of the features and services it was built to handle. Therefore if it is to develop it needs to deploy in to a real world scenario so it can get real world feedback... Not just closed door testing.

Fees aside, no one even knows what it can handle in a real world scenario, so this is a fantastic opportunity to find out and then develop a roadmap to deliver real needs.

Sorry if this is another wall of words. I didn't think it was that difficult to understand what i was trying to write before. But then again I am trying to write it from a positive, business orientated, real world perspective. We have opportunities. Can they or will they be supported or should they be looking for other options?

i.e calm down and have a serious debate and find a solution that benefits NXT moving forward and long term as what will kill it will be the inability to deliver on real world projects, which are now starting to come through thick and fast.
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ThomasVeil

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2015, 07:26:19 pm »

Could you address some of the questions Brandgons posted for example. I.e.: Is that just a concern now or if NXT grows 10-fold?

The payments are made with SMS.

How much are the SMS fees? Really lower than the nxt fee?

If I write a app which make one action a block, I'll need 1440x365=525600NXT a year as fee. That's too high.
[...]
We promote NXT as platform so much, but the fee is rule out a lots of possibility already. :(

Well, it's the blockchain tech that limits the possibilities. Bloated blockchains would make it tough for people to provide nodes or use the currency. As such a balance has to be found - to allow lots of use, while stopping wastefulness.


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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2015, 06:35:12 am »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.

Floating point is not a issue with Nxt. I think changing fee might just be a matter of changing some constants in the code.

So let me do a little brainstorming here:

If we could have settings in nxt.properties for the different tx types and their minimum fees, every node operator could decide for himself how much fee he wants to include a tx in a block. I think this is similar to what bitcoin nodes do while mining a block. What about a tx which is not included? Will it be included later by any forging node with lower fee settings?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2015, 06:43:19 am »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.

Floating point is not a issue with Nxt. I think changing fee might just be a matter of changing some constants in the code.

So let me do a little brainstorming here:

If we could have settings in nxt.properties for the different tx types and their minimum fees, every node operator could decide for himself how much fee he wants to include a tx in a block. I think this is similar to what bitcoin nodes do while mining a block. What about a tx which is not included? Will it be included later by any forging node with lower fee settings?
This is exactly how I see the market decision on tx fees. Not included txs will stay in the pool of unconfirmed transaction until included in block or deadline reached.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2015, 09:34:01 am »

So let me do a little brainstorming here:

If we could have settings in nxt.properties for the different tx types and their minimum fees, every node operator could decide for himself how much fee he wants to include a tx in a block. I think this is similar to what bitcoin nodes do while mining a block. What about a tx which is not included? Will it be included later by any forging node with lower fee settings?
This is exactly how I see the market decision on tx fees. Not included txs will stay in the pool of unconfirmed transaction until included in block or deadline reached.

I would see a couple of problems. First off for usability. I already hate it if blocks take longer than a minute. Imagine now I put my proper 1 NXT fee in, and then maybe my buy order or time-sensitive transaction doesn't go through because the current forgers want more. The whole thing would be come unreliable. Noob users would be baffled.

Secondly you would rely on the forgers to make the best decisions here. Someone with not even such a big balance could screw transaction times. Or allow spam. Or spam themselves - by accepting zero fee, but then sending a million transactions for their own block.
Or maybe they just set silly numbers because they're not well educated on NXT.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2015, 09:37:02 am »

If forgers are allowed to set minimum fees themselves, any rational forger will set minimum fee to zero.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2015, 09:47:51 am »

If forgers are allowed to set minimum fees themselves, any rational forger will set minimum fee to zero.

Hm, I don't think so: no income, no incentive to forge.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2015, 09:55:41 am »

Excluding transactions below your minimum fee, even though there is still space in the block, means less income. Why take this risk? If there are more transactions that can fit in a block, you are still going to select the best paying ones with preference even if your minimum fee is zero. If there are fewer transactions that can fit, accepting those with 0.00001 fee is still better (for the forger, but not for the whole system) than not accepting them. I see a classical tragedy of the commons situation here.

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2015, 09:58:51 am »

If forgers are allowed to set minimum fees themselves, any rational forger will set minimum fee to zero.
I seriously doubt any forger would set it to zero.
I do feel rational by not allowing blockchain bloats and spam.
I think most of them would leave it on the standard value, and only some will adjust it.

The point is that every block you generate, you can fill up for free. Making it possible already for the forgers to set their minimum fee to zero, just not in a transparent way.

I can ask NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 to send out those 3500 messages monthly for 200 nxt fee. Or buy some nxt, start forging and do it myself (though my client might have to be a bit customized). No-one might ever know as he paid me back the 3300 on different accounts etc.

Also it is the forgers who should decide on what that fee is in POS,
not the discussion on the forum,
not the poll on the nxt platform,
not the programmers as this might lead to a fork in the long term.

It is up to programmers to implement though :) , all I can do is try to convince some to do so.

EDIT: The classical tragedy of the commons situation is already here, whether the fees are all the same or set by the forgers. It doesn't change anything when making it transparent, just make it visible where being abused.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 10:02:19 am by TheCoinWizard »
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2015, 10:39:30 am »

Could you address some of the questions Brandgons posted for example. I.e.: Is that just a concern now or if NXT grows 10-fold?

The payments are made with SMS.

How much are the SMS fees? Really lower than the nxt fee?

If I write a app which make one action a block, I'll need 1440x365=525600NXT a year as fee. That's too high.
[...]
We promote NXT as platform so much, but the fee is rule out a lots of possibility already. :(

Well, it's the blockchain tech that limits the possibilities. Bloated blockchains would make it tough for people to provide nodes or use the currency. As such a balance has to be found - to allow lots of use, while stopping wastefulness.

Hi -

Yes the fees is an issue now. 1 NXT = about 15 Namibian cents. so this is prohibitive as it rolls in to the cost of running a service. so SMS fees could be higher, but it is about the total cost of operation at that point. The reason being that some SMS fees are covered by discounts provided by vendors for having their products available to be purchased by mobile money. Some of these discounts are then split with the purchaser and used as commission to the operators. So the sale of goods and services is supported by commission fees. For peer-to-peer money transfer there is no charge, so the costs of the SMS transactions and operations is absorbed. Therefore any additional cost starts to have an impact.

This is obviously an issue with a large number of economies where their currency isn't as strong as the USD, Euro or GBP.

Roll that up in to some numbers, so lets say 10% adoption of mobile money with 2 transaction per day = 400,000 transactions per day. That would equate to roughly 60,000 NAD / Day or roughly 21.5millon NAD / Year or roughly €1.6m. That is now a new cost centre over and above network operation, staff, company operation, marketing and promotion, etc.  So the average income is 15,000 NAD / Year - if you were to double that income you could employ roughly 700 people for the full year, based solely on the NXT transaction fees of a low adoption service.

That is all fair and good, but the other part comes in that in order to operate the system there has to be enough NXT in it to be able to operate effectively and not be ruined by a huge pump in the price of NXT, therefore the operator would ideally have to pre purchase as much NXT as possible prior to issuing the service as once it is launched and in use there would be a high chance the market cap would increase significantly. This therefore has 2 issues. 1 they need a huge up front capital expenditure to use a system they could effectively run without and or are hugely impacted by market cap fluctuations once running the service in this way and if they cannot bear the cost of the NXT fees they could then impact the vital service to end users.

This is one of the reasons why Bitcoin isn't as widely used in these types of markets, although I did hear that you can peg bit coin to within 10% mirror of the Egyptian Pound, but given their recent history I am not sure that is a positive thing or not? Maybe for Egypt / Bitcoin, but it doesn't really help business owners operate effective services for those that need it.

I am not sure what the most workable solution is in the next evolutionary step, but it is good to get some positive thoughts on addressing multiple user needs.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2015, 12:15:15 pm »

The point is that every block you generate, you can fill up for free. Making it possible already for the forgers to set their minimum fee to zero, just not in a transparent way.

This is the case, Nxt transactions are free as long as you send the transaction on your forging turn, and if you have a large balance you can take multiple turns per day.  That is where I imagine the "service provider" feature comes into play eventually:

Quote
I can ask NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 to send out those 3500 messages monthly for 200 nxt fee.

If NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 starts a web service and becomes the next Coinbase for Nxt, they can offer free transactions to customers (up to a limit) and out-compete other forgers and Nxt service providers.

This works for the unbanked environment example as well, a payment service provider can purchase a stake in Nxt and figure out a rate of transactions per day that they can support for "free".
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2015, 02:19:02 pm »

The point is that every block you generate, you can fill up for free. Making it possible already for the forgers to set their minimum fee to zero, just not in a transparent way.

This is the case, Nxt transactions are free as long as you send the transaction on your forging turn, and if you have a large balance you can take multiple turns per day.  That is where I imagine the "service provider" feature comes into play eventually:

Quote
I can ask NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 to send out those 3500 messages monthly for 200 nxt fee.

If NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 starts a web service and becomes the next Coinbase for Nxt, they can offer free transactions to customers (up to a limit) and out-compete other forgers and Nxt service providers.

This works for the unbanked environment example as well, a payment service provider can purchase a stake in Nxt and figure out a rate of transactions per day that they can support for "free".

If someone writes a bullet proof script for me, I can set something like this up. Got a few M NXT dormant  all the time.

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2015, 03:14:24 pm »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.

Floating point is not a issue with Nxt. I think changing fee might just be a matter of changing some constants in the code.

Okay, thanks. I know about NQT, but I don't know the source code at all. That's why I was wondering if there were something under the hood that would impede it.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2015, 03:19:06 pm »

Lower transaction fees will create many possibilities to extend the Nxt platform into new areas.
For example?
What new areas are available with 0,5 NXT fee? 0,1 NXT?

0.2 Nxt fee => Nxt fee becomes cost-competitive with Bitcoin's minimum fee.

Prolly doesn't answer your question, but it does make a point - esp. since there's a controversy over Bitcoin "letting a fee market develop" (which will prolly mean the de facto minimum will rise.)
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2015, 03:20:54 pm »

The point is that every block you generate, you can fill up for free. Making it possible already for the forgers to set their minimum fee to zero, just not in a transparent way.

This is the case, Nxt transactions are free as long as you send the transaction on your forging turn, and if you have a large balance you can take multiple turns per day.  That is where I imagine the "service provider" feature comes into play eventually:

Quote
I can ask NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 to send out those 3500 messages monthly for 200 nxt fee.

If NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 starts a web service and becomes the next Coinbase for Nxt, they can offer free transactions to customers (up to a limit) and out-compete other forgers and Nxt service providers.

This works for the unbanked environment example as well, a payment service provider can purchase a stake in Nxt and figure out a rate of transactions per day that they can support for "free".

If someone writes a bullet proof script for me, I can set something like this up. Got a few M NXT dormant  all the time.

So this is the case where one big-ass forger would take zero tx fees.

But how many blocks are you forging per day with a "few M NXT"? I guess it's not sufficient to support thousands of tx per day.  ::)

So we need more "altruistic" forgers to get enough free txs for africa or similar use cases. And then we must decide how to effectively prevent spam. Right?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2015, 03:25:11 pm »

About 10 a day. Also I never said I am altruistic and will do it for free ;)
with the current system I don't even thing the african TX should be on the blockchain. But a coinbase like "delayed" zero/near-zero fee sending might be interesting

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2015, 03:29:18 pm »

So we need more "altruistic" forgers to get enough free txs for africa or similar use cases. And then we must decide how to effectively prevent spam. Right?

Or pseudo-altruistic forgers who offer a cut-fee option in exchange for sign-ups which they monetize in other ways later...
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #89 on: July 24, 2015, 04:23:25 pm »

About 10 a day. Also I never said I am altruistic and will do it for free ;)
with the current system I don't even thing the african TX should be on the blockchain. But a coinbase like "delayed" zero/near-zero fee sending might be interesting

I don't understand, could you please elaborate on that.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2015, 04:25:56 pm »

I don't think the current system is built for a flood of low value transactions. There must be better options. Like offchain transactions that are settled once a day. Don't forget NXT can only transact about 1.5 tx per second.

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2015, 04:35:05 pm »

Don't forget NXT can only transact about 1.5 tx per second.

For now, a hard fork could change this. Same idea as the blocksize dilema with bitcoin.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2015, 05:39:54 pm »

I don't think the current system is built for a flood of low value transactions. There must be better options. Like offchain transactions that are settled once a day. Don't forget NXT can only transact about 1.5 tx per second.

Ah, now I understand. I think it's a bit more - max. 255 tx per block every 60 seconds - but I must admit that you're right.

That doesn't mean that we are unable to scale up to this! We aren't bitcoin.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2015, 01:03:35 pm »

If we could have settings in nxt.properties for the different tx types and their minimum fees, every node operator could decide for himself how much fee he wants to include a tx in a block. I think this is similar to what bitcoin nodes do while mining a block. What about a tx which is not included? Will it be included later by any forging node with lower fee settings?
Those transactions have a cost in block-chain storage, and the bandwidth for propagating blocks and transactions around the network. One thing I dislike about "forger decides for their own blocks" is that those costs are paid by everyone who runs a full node. It's not just the forger who forged the block who pays the costs of the transactions in the block. I agree with Jean-Luc that it could lead to a tragedy of the commons.

This hasn't much happened with Bitcoin so far, but I think that's because Bitcoin fees are a trivial portion of their revenue. It's swamped by the block reward. That may change as the block-reward halves and the income from fees becomes significant.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2015, 01:17:09 pm »

If someone writes a bullet proof script for me, I can set something like this up. Got a few M NXT dormant  all the time.
Is a script for you all it needs, or does the sender of the transaction need to do something special too? It seems to me the person who creates the transaction needs to send it to you directly, because if it appears on the general network, some other forger will forge it and keep the fees.

(The transaction must have a valid fee to be accepted by the network when you forge it. You aren't accepting transactions with low fees; you're instead returning some of the fee in another transaction.)
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2015, 01:25:59 pm »

I know, it must be a script I can run on a server where people can feed signed TX

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2015, 01:27:08 pm »

We need pruning of MS transactions that do not affect NXT balances (other than the fee).
Surely their effect on MS balances also needs to be kept? Else how do you know an MS transaction is valid, if you don't know the MS balances? More pruning is better, but I don't see why NXT is different to other currencies here. Am I missing something? Is it to do with your vision for side-chains?

Quote
Without pruning I don't see a scalable way to have a single blockchain with fees that are low enough for African countries, yet high enough to prevent spammers from Western countries.
That seems to be the dilemma. Presumably even with multiple block-chains, there's nothing to stop rich Westerners spamming the poor African currencies. Low-value block-chains are vulnerable.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #97 on: July 27, 2015, 06:31:41 am »

Let me summarize the discussion about the tx fees so far.

  • we could generally lower the fees (0.1 to 0.5 NXT were mentioned), but we don't know if that is sufficient to support the "africa" use case
  • we could create a settings variable so that the forgers can decide for themselves, but JL warns that the tragedy of the commons could create a race to the bottom
  • twinwinnerd would give away "free" tx with his node if someone writes him a script

Any more ideas? Sure I must have forgotten to mention something.

IMHO twinwinnerd's idea is suitable for a test project (if the development is not too complicated), I would support him by leasing my nxt to his account.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #98 on: July 27, 2015, 07:07:59 am »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #99 on: July 27, 2015, 09:12:58 am »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.

TheCoinWizard

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2015, 10:41:58 am »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.
But 0 NXT is ?!?
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2015, 01:05:21 pm »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.
But 0 NXT is ?!?

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).
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cc001

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2015, 02:00:44 pm »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.
But 0 NXT is ?!?

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).

I kind of like the idea to use not only the fee, but also the number of transactions (per block..??) to prevent spam.
What do you think about the following thoughts:
We allow a lot of transactions with high fees, but only a few with low fees. That will prevent spam, because you can not transmit a lot of low-fee transactions in a short amount of time, but you still can use transactions with very low fees. You can push a lot of high-fee transactions though.

My idea is the following: keep the number of transactions from one account per block, divided by the fee, below a constant number.
As a formula: NbrOfTransactions / Fee <= Constant.

NbrOfTransactions is always meant per block.

I give an example with arbitrary numbers:
C = 100

So, someone is allowed to push 100 1NXT-Fee-Transactions per block (100/1 <= 100). If he wants to push 200 Transactions, he must pay 2NXT fee per transaction if he wants to get them included in one block (200/2 <= 100), if he pays only 1NXT fee, it will be published in two blocks.
If anybody wants to pay only 0.01NXT fee per transaction, he can publish only 1 transaction per block (1/0.01 <= 100).
If someone wants to spam with 100 0.01NXT-fee-transactions, the transactions will be distributed over 100 blocks (and are no spam...)

Of course C = 100 is just an example. And of course all transactions could have different fees, so the real formule would be more like 1/F1 + 1/F2 + 1/F3 + .... <= C (with FX = Fee of transaction X)

What do the math-, coding-, and crypto-pros think about that system? Is that something worth to think about, or am I completely wrong?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2015, 02:11:53 pm »

There is still the problem that a spammer could use 100 different accounts, to spam with 0.01-fee-transactions. how could that be prevented? making transferring NXT to new accounts more expensive (minimum of 1 NXT per "money-transaction")? Other ideas?
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farl4bit

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2015, 02:13:52 pm »

Can't we make different segments of fees for different kind of transactions? For sending NXT, the fee is good. But for arbitary messages I suggest to make the fee 0.1 NXT. The network would still be safe and we need incentives for the forgers.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #105 on: July 27, 2015, 02:14:12 pm »

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.
At that price, even 1 NXT per transaction only costs around $2,500 to fill a day's worth of transactions.

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).
The problem with anything account-based is that the attacker can create as many accounts as they need. We could allow, say, 1 free or cheap transaction a day, and if the attacker created 700 * 255 = 178,500 accounts they could fill up every block indefinitely. Again, that'd cost around $2,500 currently to set up, which isn't a lot.

(This problem arises with cc001's proposal, too.)

Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.

If Nxt is at all successful, we're going to have to deal with large block-chain sizes sooner or later.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #106 on: July 27, 2015, 02:25:22 pm »


Can't we make different segments of fees for different kind of transactions? For sending NXT, the fee is good. But for arbitary messages I suggest to make the fee 0.1 NXT. The network would still be safe and we need incentives for the forgers.

We should try to find a solution that enables us to support the "Africa" use case. The fee of 1 NXT is not much for us, but way too high in those developing countries.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #107 on: July 27, 2015, 02:40:34 pm »

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).

A transaction from an account that has had no activity for a while could have a lower fee. This would be similar to Bitcoin, where transactions with old inputs are free. It could also be a sliding scale: the longer the account is inactive, the lower the fee for the next transaction becomes.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #108 on: July 27, 2015, 02:57:13 pm »

Can't we make different segments of fees for different kind of transactions? For sending NXT, the fee is good. But for arbitary messages I suggest to make the fee 0.1 NXT. The network would still be safe and we need incentives for the forgers.

I must agree, for sending transaction the fee is good.

But for simpler stuff like voting or sending messages the fee should be lowered.

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #109 on: July 27, 2015, 03:03:36 pm »

I hope some people will try to read it  :)

1. Towards the Africa argument... Blockchain technology costs to use.
Depending on how many nodes are running a blockchain, the more expensive, but also the safer it is.
It will be difficult to be as competitive with blockchain technology as centralized services are.
However, it is possible, by not having to keep to many copies of the blockchain, and thus not to have to much nodes.

Since nxt has already more than 200 nodes running, the cost of transactions is higher.
But since the blockchain is 200+ times decentralized copied the safety keeping the public ledger is also high.

If we wish to offer extremely cheap transactions, the only way is to not have them on the nxt blockchain,
but on its own clone-blockchain, supported by much less nodes than nxt is.
It would be optionally forged by nxt forgers according to the nxt stake the forger has and wether they choose to forge that coin.

In my idea of this 'child-nxt-chain' the only thing being saved on the nxt blockchain is the unique ID's of these currencies.
Offering nxt forgers to also forge these coins, chosen individually.
As with Assets their names are not unique.
Their transaction fee can be set when they are created, and is paid not in NXT, but in its own currency.
The fee to issue them on the nxt blockchain can be very low since all the bloat it causes there is the id of the currency saved.

Code: [Select]
Technicly the issuing fee could even be near zero if nothing about it would be on the nxt blockchain,
and the child-nxt-chain would itself refer to the nxt blockchain in order to see who has which forging power.
This would be like facilitating easily cloning of nxt, in order to make nxt more valuable since the clones are set up Proof Of NXT Stake.

If the transaction fee is to worthless forgers will choose not to support it, and it might even die off if noone does.
If the transaction fee gets valuable, more forgers will choose to allow their node to support that chain, and as it gets safer.


2. Now on towards how much a fee should be on the nxt blockchain itself.

The tragedy of the commons JL is referring to is because the forger that creates a block gets the fees, yet the commons are responsible to save and upload that date when needed for the future.
This IS already a fact and cannot be avoided on the long term by just keeping it quiet.
Over time forgers WILL UNDERCUT these hard-coded imposed fees,
first for creating their own free transactions.
Later for offering cheaper, or even free, transactions to third parties.

The ONLY way to get rid of this 'tragedy' is by reorganizing the fee structure,
so the rewards get spread over creating blocks and uploading old blocks.

Though I think this is a good idea, it would be a huge change to the current NXT system. Lots of code to rewrite, etc.
I do not think this is an urgent thing to implement.

What I do feel is urgent to implement is a system that changes to nxt fee according to the amount of data it writes in the blockchain and for how long that data needs to be saved.
Like X nxt per kB per 100'000 blocks

I also feel that it is more than a year overdue to couple the fees more to their fiat values.
I think that forgers themselves are most in place to decide how much that is.
More than the programmers who have proven just keep the 1 nxt fee a constant, no matter how much discussion about it.

Hence the vote on it: Should fees be consensus set, or set by the individual forger
With Poll ID:    https://nxtportal.org/polls/2799041280732484164

If you get what I typed, go ahead and vote "The fees should be decided by the forgers."
Otherwise read my post again, think, and try to understand it   :D :D :D
Maybe even ask a question about what part you do not get...
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2015, 03:06:58 pm »

Maybe we can find a way to prevent spam even with zero fee txs.

What about a statistical analysis of the unconfirmed txs? Something like: "limit the amount of zero fee txs coming from the same account", so that the blocks don't fill up with it. The filtered txs would confirm in the following blocks, so nothing get lost (but it would take them considerable more time to confirm).

A transaction from an account that has had no activity for a while could have a lower fee. This would be similar to Bitcoin, where transactions with old inputs are free. It could also be a sliding scale: the longer the account is inactive, the lower the fee for the next transaction becomes.

Good idea, but I'm not sure if this technically is going to work. The forging node must determine the age of the last tx for every account in the unconfirmed txs, wouldn't that put much more workload on the node?
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dude

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #111 on: July 27, 2015, 03:13:11 pm »

...
Sorry if this is another wall of words.
...

It is, this time from the 30 senteces you posted, there is some actual information in 4 of them. The main one being "we manage the private keys of the wallets".

Because getting more information would probably be quite a task and everything is as I expected, let's break down what you are actually doing.

1) your service is a direct copy of M-PESA system (from the view of a customer) - which means you are essentially a bank that uses mobile phones instead of credit cards
2) your service has a twist though! you want to mirror all transactions on a blockchain (while holding all private keys, using Nxt's MS currency), the reason being to
eliminate corruption and enable transparency
3) you are expecting 400,000 transactions per day, which is currently cca two times what could Nxt network handle at full load (800 blocks x 255 TXs/day = 204000, leaving no space for any other transaction)
and translates to roughly 0.5GB of new blockchain data every day
4) you have a problem, because it would cost you too much to do this using the current system, you want lower, preferably zero TX fee

So, where do I start? I would expect most people with basic understanding of any blockchain system to see why this idea doesn't make sense and isn't solving any problems.

Let's forget about the current limitations of Nxt's blockchain (space and fees) and focus on the fact that the basic principle of any cryptocurrency,
where the user is the owner of his money and does not rely on any third party to make and verify transactions (the reason why it's been created) is missing in your concept,
there is no need for a blockchain in a system where one entity owns all the private keys.

I know people are desperate for adoption of Nxt's technology, but it must be applied where it makes sense, not just slapped on a legacy system with no real purpose and hoping noone will notice.
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landomata

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #112 on: July 27, 2015, 03:27:37 pm »


Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.


This looks promising....a portion of each block for low fee transactions....after the 0.01 Nxt "Tier" gets filled it moves to the next "Tier" 0.5 Nxt and then the next, etc.

Each Tier would have a set amount of transactions it can hold for each block....If you have an urgent transaction you pay 2 Nxt for the higher Tier.  If you have a low fee transaction then you can wait till a future block picks it up.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 03:33:13 pm by landomata »
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2015, 03:31:34 pm »


Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.


This looks promising....a portion of each block for low fee transactions....after the 0.01 Nxt "Tier" gets filled it moves to the next "Tier" 0.5 Nxt and then the next, etc.

Each Tier would have a set amount of transactions it can hold for each block.
[sarcasm]
Yeah, only 10% of the infinit blockchain bloat, very promising it is  :D
[/sarcasm]
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #114 on: July 27, 2015, 03:38:33 pm »

A transaction from an account that has had no activity for a while could have a lower fee. This would be similar to Bitcoin, where transactions with old inputs are free. It could also be a sliding scale: the longer the account is inactive, the lower the fee for the next transaction becomes.

Good idea, but I'm not sure if this technically is going to work. The forging node must determine the age of the last tx for every account in the unconfirmed txs, wouldn't that put much more workload on the node?
It should be cheap enough to store the block height of the most recent transaction with the account that made it, along with the account name, balance and all its other properties. It's just a few bytes, and the account needs to be loaded to check the balance anyway. However, it has the usual problem that attackers can create very many accounts.

cc001 suggested making it more expensive to create accounts. Say, 10 NXT. That would help, but it would make it more expensive for newcomers to try out Nxt. Also, I guess a fee that high to create an account would be a burden in poor countries.
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #115 on: July 27, 2015, 03:41:03 pm »


Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.


This looks promising....a portion of each block for low fee transactions....after the 0.01 Nxt "Tier" gets filled it moves to the next "Tier" 0.5 Nxt and then the next, etc.

Each Tier would have a set amount of transactions it can hold for each block.
[sarcasm]
Yeah, only 10% of the infinit blockchain bloat, very promising it is  :D
[/sarcasm]

Yeah I'm trying to look at this from a variety of perspectives....blockchain bloat is bad, but non adoption and death of Nxt is worst.

Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2015, 03:45:56 pm »

[sarcasm]
Yeah, only 10% of the infinit blockchain bloat, very promising it is  :D
[/sarcasm]
It's not infinite; not until Nxt has been running forever. (And we all know it will be deaded in 1,000 years.)

And at some point we're going to have to cope with blocks that are 10% full anyway. If something like the Africa suggestion takes off, we're going to get at least that many honest transactions. All a spammer will be doing is replacing some honest ones with dishonest ones (and screwing up African users, but that can't be helped).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 03:48:02 pm by Brangdon »
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LocoMB

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #117 on: July 27, 2015, 03:56:37 pm »

1.
2.
3.
4.

You do point out scalability issues that we need to address sooner or later anyway.

However, there are also valuable use cases of the blockchain that do not simply involve using Nxt as payment tokens for 1:1 payments.
The blockchain is an immutable ledger that can be used for far more than that, and not all of that involves bloat.


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Klokan

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2015, 04:01:41 pm »

Can't we make different segments of fees for different kind of transactions? For sending NXT, the fee is good. But for arbitary messages I suggest to make the fee 0.1 NXT. The network would still be safe and we need incentives for the forgers.

I must agree, for sending transaction the fee is good.

But for simpler stuff like voting or sending messages the fee should be lowered.

Disagree (partially). Let's look for some dividends payment, or micropayment in general - if somebody wants to send to you (e.g.) 2.73NXT, 1NXT fee is "more than high". The same for sell/bid orders in AE -- lot of people would be motivated to do "exchange business" for 10NXT profit, if they believe, that 10NXT will be sometimes $10, or $100 (or 1BTC, or something like this ;) ). But with 1 (or more) NXT as a fee ... maybe this is one of the reason, why the volume in AE is not so much high (..as we all wish it would be).

How hard would be change fee algorithm e.g. in this way : 1% of transaction amount, if this amount is <100NXT, for >=100NXT would be still 1NXT ? This would solve the "micropayment issue", but not the "spamming one", that's right.

I'm afraid that there is no easy solution for all "use cases" there...
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #119 on: July 27, 2015, 04:08:39 pm »


Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.


This looks promising....a portion of each block for low fee transactions....after the 0.01 Nxt "Tier" gets filled it moves to the next "Tier" 0.5 Nxt and then the next, etc.

Each Tier would have a set amount of transactions it can hold for each block.
[sarcasm]
Yeah, only 10% of the infinit blockchain bloat, very promising it is  :D
[/sarcasm]

Yeah I'm trying to look at this from a variety of perspectives....blockchain bloat is bad, but non adoption and death of Nxt is worst.

Absolutely indeed. I don't say that the general reason of "a weak adoption" of NXT is the (current) constant 1NXT fee, but I think it may adversely affect in some cases.

Somebody proposed the idea with lower fee for the "first transactions" in each block and increasing for each other (in the same block). User has two choices then : Get the lower fee and wait for the next block(s) or insert his transaction quickly for the current block with higher fee. Yes, it's similar to Bitcoin, but ... why not ?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #120 on: July 27, 2015, 04:11:40 pm »

Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.

If Nxt is at all successful, we're going to have to deal with large block-chain sizes sooner or later.

In that case the attack only costs a few high-fee txs for the attacker.




An account like NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 is unaffected by higher-fee transactions, e.g. the 1000 NXT cost for issuing an asset.  They could issue thousands of new aliases/assets/currencies every day and squat the entire namespace for 3-4-5 letter codes if they wanted, for *free*.  Whether this is viewed as a flaw or a feature depends on how you view Nxt.  Large stakeholders own the right to send lots of transactions, as they should.  They can abuse it, we just hope there is enough of a market incentive for them to behave rationally as we don't have any built-in reputation-based solutions.

Ideally the tx fees would track with the market value of Nxt, but that is a very difficult problem because there is no good way to determine what a "real/official" market price is, let alone agree on and set it.  I think in the long run we should assume that most blocks will always be entirely filled by forgers who provide a second tier transaction market as suggested earlier.  That is the only way I can see transaction fees adjusting with the market value of NXT, assuming that in most cases the large forgers necessarily believe in a future value of NXT tokens.  The cost for them to send transactions is the same (free) no matter what the market price, and they have the ability to pass that through to users.

Perhaps we could use forging pools as a way to do this.  Lease your balance to an account, and any blocks forged by that account will send you back a portion of the tx fees collected from your transactions.  Then everyone is incentivized to lease out their balances and send transactions whenever their pool is about to forge a block.  The pool could offer a service to include signed txs that are sent directly, or the user can just wait until their pool is up to forge.  This looks more like DPoS without forced participation.
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v39453

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #121 on: July 27, 2015, 05:03:58 pm »

A transaction from an account that has had no activity for a while could have a lower fee. This would be similar to Bitcoin, where transactions with old inputs are free. It could also be a sliding scale: the longer the account is inactive, the lower the fee for the next transaction becomes.

Good idea, but I'm not sure if this technically is going to work. The forging node must determine the age of the last tx for every account in the unconfirmed txs, wouldn't that put much more workload on the node?
It should be cheap enough to store the block height of the most recent transaction with the account that made it, along with the account name, balance and all its other properties. It's just a few bytes, and the account needs to be loaded to check the balance anyway. However, it has the usual problem that attackers can create very many accounts.

An attacker could create many accounts either cheaply and slowly, or quickly and by paying the full fee for each account created.

I'm not aware of anyone using Bitcoin's free transaction feature for spamming.
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2015, 07:58:12 pm »

Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.

If Nxt is at all successful, we're going to have to deal with large block-chain sizes sooner or later.

In that case the attack only costs a few high-fee txs for the attacker.
I don't see why a per-block limit makes that worse. What I suggested limits the harm done by low-fee spam without making it any more likely.

The various suggestions here can be combined:
  • No more than 1/16th of any block can be low-fee transactions.
  • No more than 8 low-fee transactions per account per 1440 blocks.
  • Creating new accounts is kept expensive (possible more so than today).
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TheCoinWizard

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #123 on: July 27, 2015, 09:02:46 pm »

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coretechs

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #124 on: July 28, 2015, 01:59:21 am »

Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.

If Nxt is at all successful, we're going to have to deal with large block-chain sizes sooner or later.

In that case the attack only costs a few high-fee txs for the attacker.

I don't see why a per-block limit makes that worse. What I suggested limits the harm done by low-fee spam without making it any more likely.

The various suggestions here can be combined:
  • No more than 1/16th of any block can be low-fee transactions.
  • No more than 8 low-fee transactions per account per 1440 blocks.
  • Creating new accounts is kept expensive (possible more so than today).

But aren't the majority of transactions low-fee?  Hard-limiting txs based on type/fee and trying to add other layers of restrictions is likely to introduce problems and complicates the system.  Lowering tx fees means that it becomes inexpensive for anyone to spam attack the network, whereas right now these types of spam attacks are limited to large stakeholders & forging pools.  I'm suggesting that it should stay this way because forgers can already compete to process lower-than-standard fee transactions.  It doesn't require any changes, any forging pool can do this immediately by simply sending back a % of fees for transactions included in blocks that they forge.  I'd be curious to see if users would start sending transactions on a pools forging turn if that pool announced discounted fees in the form of rebates.
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TheCoinWizard

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #125 on: July 28, 2015, 02:16:23 am »

But aren't the majority of transactions low-fee?  Hard-limiting txs based on type/fee and trying to add other layers of restrictions is likely to introduce problems and complicates the system.  Lowering tx fees means that it becomes inexpensive for anyone to spam attack the network, whereas right now these types of spam attacks are limited to large stakeholders & forging pools.  I'm suggesting that it should stay this way because forgers can already compete to process lower-than-standard fee transactions.  It doesn't require any changes, any forging pool can do this immediately by simply sending back a % of fees for transactions included in blocks that they forge.



I'd be curious to see if users would start sending transactions on a pools forging turn if that pool announced discounted fees in the form of rebates.
I'd be surprised if forgers would do this openly for you and other forgers to see.
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LocoMB

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #126 on: July 28, 2015, 04:42:38 am »


Let me throw in a thought here- maybe it does not add up so please shoot it down anybody:

How about having variable transaction fees that are pegged to an external asset?

Like for example always $0.01 or 1 milligram of gold or so?
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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #127 on: July 28, 2015, 05:45:36 am »


Let me throw in a thought here- maybe it does not add up so please shoot it down anybody:

How about having variable transaction fees that are pegged to an external asset?

Like for example always $0.01 or 1 milligram of gold or so?
Not a bad idea. James is currently working on Peggy.

Jean-Luc

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #128 on: July 28, 2015, 08:18:23 am »

When is Nxt.org going to be fixed?
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #130 on: July 28, 2015, 08:46:24 pm »

But aren't the majority of transactions low-fee?
Currently none of them are. By "low fee" I mean 0.1 NXT or 0.01 NXT or whatever we decide is needed to promote use in impoverished countries, and the other use cases that are currently too expensive.

Quote
Hard-limiting txs based on type/fee and trying to add other layers of restrictions is likely to introduce problems and complicates the system.
I can't see a simple solution that works. And this isn't that complicated. We already have different fees for different transaction types, and limits on the number of transactions per block.

Quote
Lowering tx fees means that it becomes inexpensive for anyone to spam attack the network, whereas right now these types of spam attacks are limited to large stakeholders & forging pools.  I'm suggesting that it should stay this way because forgers can already compete to process lower-than-standard fee transactions.  It doesn't require any changes, any forging pool can do this immediately by simply sending back a % of fees for transactions included in blocks that they forge.  I'd be curious to see if users would start sending transactions on a pools forging turn if that pool announced discounted fees in the form of rebates.
To me that is an example of a complicated solution. If I send the transaction to a low-fee forger directly, then I need a whole new system to do that with. I have to decide which system to use. If instead I use the existing network broadcast system, then I need to wait until the right account is likely to forge, and make sure the transaction is broadcast just before it. If for some reason a different account forges, I lose the fees. Either way I somehow need to track which forgers are offering low fees, and what their fees actually are, and trade off cheapness against reliability and expected time delay. If some forgers give low fees only to their preferred MS currency (as I suggested XOS do, in their sub-forum), then I have to track that, too, and make sure I have enough of their currency to conduct my business.

Also, with this approach the transaction rate is massively lowered. Supposing 1% of forgers accept low fees, it takes 100 times as long to get my transaction into a block. The space in the block is limited, especially as for each user transaction there has to be a second transaction returning the fee, so it's effectively 127 useful slots rather than 255. We've actually doubled the bloat, made attacks twice as effective, while halving the useful transactions-per-second figure. If my transaction doesn't make it, I have to wait another 100 blocks or so.

For some of the use-cases we want to promote, timing is important. Changing bids and prices, for example: waiting for the right forger might mean losing more money than the lower fee saved. With no saving the new system becomes pointless and the use-case is not served.

I say 1% of forgers, as a relatively low figure, because I doubt it will be more, because there's no financial incentive for them to do this. They suffer all the costs of losing the fees, and if there is any benefit from increased volume of normal fee transactions, that benefits all forgers, not just the generous ones. A rational forger would let everyone else be generous. It's another tragedy of the commons. Also, even generous forgers might object to the doubling of the block-chain bloat that this low-fee mechanism requires.

None of this is insurmountable, of course. I'm just saying that to me it doesn't seem simple or elegant, either technically or socially.
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lucky88888

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #131 on: July 29, 2015, 12:10:21 am »

i have an idea lets see how you guys think, basically like the title says.

why not we hardcode a bunch of voting options specifically for fee changes where everyone can participate to vote and change the fee structure in realtime.
(counted up and rounded off after each block or 1000 blocks, 10000 blocks etc?). no need to hardfork every time price changes.

but it should cost something per vote to count in order to prevent bad intention votes and to be safe there should be an api that monitor and warns that next fee update will be xxxx amount of nxt per tx.

(eg when everyone is not worrying about the fee and someone with bad intention decided to attack the fee structor by lowering the fees to 0.0000001 and api should warn that nxt fee will be 0.0000001 in xxx blocks, vote now to change! etc)

we could start experiment with 100nxt? per vote count. this way it will cost a lot of nxt in total to change the fee structure and it will be decentralized and it will provide very good forging fees.

this will work nicely as long as we have more active good voter power than the bad voters.
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lucky88888

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #132 on: July 29, 2015, 12:23:43 am »


we could start experiment with 100nxt? per vote count. this way it will cost a lot of nxt in total to change the fee structure and it will be decentralized and it will provide very good forging fees.

actually i think the amount of fees to vote for this doesn't matter as long as it is more than 0 because everyone should be able to vote multiple times.
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coretechs

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #133 on: July 29, 2015, 03:31:36 am »

For some of the use-cases we want to promote, timing is important. Changing bids and prices, for example: waiting for the right forger might mean losing more money than the lower fee saved. With no saving the new system becomes pointless and the use-case is not served.

Good point, the caveat is definitely the delay.  Discounted forging pools only make sense for transactions where a delay is acceptable, such as registering a new asset.

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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #134 on: July 29, 2015, 06:14:41 am »

Maybe we could make the limit per-block rather than per-account. Say no more than 1/16th of the block (currently 15 transactions) can be low-fee transactions. That would limit the long term damage a cheap attack could produce.

If Nxt is at all successful, we're going to have to deal with large block-chain sizes sooner or later.

In that case the attack only costs a few high-fee txs for the attacker.
I don't see why a per-block limit makes that worse. What I suggested limits the harm done by low-fee spam without making it any more likely.

The various suggestions here can be combined:
  • No more than 1/16th of any block can be low-fee transactions.
  • No more than 8 low-fee transactions per account per 1440 blocks.
  • Creating new accounts is kept expensive (possible more so than today).

IMHO those limits are reasonable and I second your proposal 1 & 3, but not 2, because that doesn't fit with the use case of a money transmitter. As far as I understand the "Africa" use case, there must be a controlling account triggered by SMS which sends around the NXT. This account would not be able to use low-fee txs with your second proposal.
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #135 on: August 01, 2015, 01:32:51 pm »

  • No more than 1/16th of any block can be low-fee transactions.
  • No more than 8 low-fee transactions per account per 1440 blocks.
  • Creating new accounts is kept expensive (possible more so than today).

IMHO those limits are reasonable and I second your proposal 1 & 3, but not 2, because that doesn't fit with the use case of a money transmitter. As far as I understand the "Africa" use case, there must be a controlling account triggered by SMS which sends around the NXT. This account would not be able to use low-fee txs with your second proposal.
Without (2), (3) is less important. My concern is that without (2), anyone could fill up the low-fee portion of every block easily and cheaply.

If the Africa use case has all the transactions coming from a single account, then the approach coretechs suggested is a bit more practical. If the account has enough NXT to forge, it can include all its transactions in its own blocks for free. This avoids the hassle of transferring transactions around off-chain (since it is already generating the transactions itself), and also avoids doubling the bloat because it doesn't need second transactions to return the fees. It still has the problem of terrible TPS, though. If the account has 1,400,000 NXT it will forge roughly once a day, which means 255 transactions a day.
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #136 on: November 14, 2015, 12:59:59 pm »

I hope everyone who cared about this thread is also aware of https://nxtforum.org/core-development-discussion/new-fees-and-size-limits-in-1-7/.
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xiahui135

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #137 on: November 15, 2015, 03:53:27 am »

I hope everyone who cared about this thread is also aware of https://nxtforum.org/core-development-discussion/new-fees-and-size-limits-in-1-7/.

why not make the base fee changeable in the block-chain?
If nxt price go more than 10x higher, the fee is too high. We should prepare for the high price, not to limit the price to go high.

Before, the price is main determined by speculation when people just buy in a centralized exchange. Specutors do not care much about the transation fee, because it will not affect them much.
But we aim to make the price determined by application in future, if nxt will to success. Given this, we need to encourage usage of the our block chain, and lower fee make sense. the fee structure should be low enough, just to prevent abuse.
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