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Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee? singapore
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Author Topic: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?  (Read 25073 times)

TheCoinWizard

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2015, 09:58:51 am »

If forgers are allowed to set minimum fees themselves, any rational forger will set minimum fee to zero.
I seriously doubt any forger would set it to zero.
I do feel rational by not allowing blockchain bloats and spam.
I think most of them would leave it on the standard value, and only some will adjust it.

The point is that every block you generate, you can fill up for free. Making it possible already for the forgers to set their minimum fee to zero, just not in a transparent way.

I can ask NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 to send out those 3500 messages monthly for 200 nxt fee. Or buy some nxt, start forging and do it myself (though my client might have to be a bit customized). No-one might ever know as he paid me back the 3300 on different accounts etc.

Also it is the forgers who should decide on what that fee is in POS,
not the discussion on the forum,
not the poll on the nxt platform,
not the programmers as this might lead to a fork in the long term.

It is up to programmers to implement though :) , all I can do is try to convince some to do so.

EDIT: The classical tragedy of the commons situation is already here, whether the fees are all the same or set by the forgers. It doesn't change anything when making it transparent, just make it visible where being abused.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 10:02:19 am by TheCoinWizard »
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Nicknxt

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2015, 10:39:30 am »

Could you address some of the questions Brandgons posted for example. I.e.: Is that just a concern now or if NXT grows 10-fold?

The payments are made with SMS.

How much are the SMS fees? Really lower than the nxt fee?

If I write a app which make one action a block, I'll need 1440x365=525600NXT a year as fee. That's too high.
[...]
We promote NXT as platform so much, but the fee is rule out a lots of possibility already. :(

Well, it's the blockchain tech that limits the possibilities. Bloated blockchains would make it tough for people to provide nodes or use the currency. As such a balance has to be found - to allow lots of use, while stopping wastefulness.

Hi -

Yes the fees is an issue now. 1 NXT = about 15 Namibian cents. so this is prohibitive as it rolls in to the cost of running a service. so SMS fees could be higher, but it is about the total cost of operation at that point. The reason being that some SMS fees are covered by discounts provided by vendors for having their products available to be purchased by mobile money. Some of these discounts are then split with the purchaser and used as commission to the operators. So the sale of goods and services is supported by commission fees. For peer-to-peer money transfer there is no charge, so the costs of the SMS transactions and operations is absorbed. Therefore any additional cost starts to have an impact.

This is obviously an issue with a large number of economies where their currency isn't as strong as the USD, Euro or GBP.

Roll that up in to some numbers, so lets say 10% adoption of mobile money with 2 transaction per day = 400,000 transactions per day. That would equate to roughly 60,000 NAD / Day or roughly 21.5millon NAD / Year or roughly €1.6m. That is now a new cost centre over and above network operation, staff, company operation, marketing and promotion, etc.  So the average income is 15,000 NAD / Year - if you were to double that income you could employ roughly 700 people for the full year, based solely on the NXT transaction fees of a low adoption service.

That is all fair and good, but the other part comes in that in order to operate the system there has to be enough NXT in it to be able to operate effectively and not be ruined by a huge pump in the price of NXT, therefore the operator would ideally have to pre purchase as much NXT as possible prior to issuing the service as once it is launched and in use there would be a high chance the market cap would increase significantly. This therefore has 2 issues. 1 they need a huge up front capital expenditure to use a system they could effectively run without and or are hugely impacted by market cap fluctuations once running the service in this way and if they cannot bear the cost of the NXT fees they could then impact the vital service to end users.

This is one of the reasons why Bitcoin isn't as widely used in these types of markets, although I did hear that you can peg bit coin to within 10% mirror of the Egyptian Pound, but given their recent history I am not sure that is a positive thing or not? Maybe for Egypt / Bitcoin, but it doesn't really help business owners operate effective services for those that need it.

I am not sure what the most workable solution is in the next evolutionary step, but it is good to get some positive thoughts on addressing multiple user needs.
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coretechs

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2015, 12:15:15 pm »

The point is that every block you generate, you can fill up for free. Making it possible already for the forgers to set their minimum fee to zero, just not in a transparent way.

This is the case, Nxt transactions are free as long as you send the transaction on your forging turn, and if you have a large balance you can take multiple turns per day.  That is where I imagine the "service provider" feature comes into play eventually:

Quote
I can ask NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 to send out those 3500 messages monthly for 200 nxt fee.

If NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 starts a web service and becomes the next Coinbase for Nxt, they can offer free transactions to customers (up to a limit) and out-compete other forgers and Nxt service providers.

This works for the unbanked environment example as well, a payment service provider can purchase a stake in Nxt and figure out a rate of transactions per day that they can support for "free".
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TwinWinNerD

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2015, 02:19:02 pm »

The point is that every block you generate, you can fill up for free. Making it possible already for the forgers to set their minimum fee to zero, just not in a transparent way.

This is the case, Nxt transactions are free as long as you send the transaction on your forging turn, and if you have a large balance you can take multiple turns per day.  That is where I imagine the "service provider" feature comes into play eventually:

Quote
I can ask NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 to send out those 3500 messages monthly for 200 nxt fee.

If NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 starts a web service and becomes the next Coinbase for Nxt, they can offer free transactions to customers (up to a limit) and out-compete other forgers and Nxt service providers.

This works for the unbanked environment example as well, a payment service provider can purchase a stake in Nxt and figure out a rate of transactions per day that they can support for "free".

If someone writes a bullet proof script for me, I can set something like this up. Got a few M NXT dormant  all the time.

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2015, 03:14:24 pm »

There is one thing I don't understand about the fee problem:

Is there a technical need for the 1 nxt fee? I know that it's an anti-spam measure, but is there something in the forging algorithm involved which makes it difficult to change?

That's what I was wondering. 1 Nxt is technically "easier" because it's the smallest-vale Long above zero. Hence, no complications that come with floating-point.

Floating point is not a issue with Nxt. I think changing fee might just be a matter of changing some constants in the code.

Okay, thanks. I know about NQT, but I don't know the source code at all. That's why I was wondering if there were something under the hood that would impede it.
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Nxtblg

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2015, 03:19:06 pm »

Lower transaction fees will create many possibilities to extend the Nxt platform into new areas.
For example?
What new areas are available with 0,5 NXT fee? 0,1 NXT?

0.2 Nxt fee => Nxt fee becomes cost-competitive with Bitcoin's minimum fee.

Prolly doesn't answer your question, but it does make a point - esp. since there's a controversy over Bitcoin "letting a fee market develop" (which will prolly mean the de facto minimum will rise.)
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2015, 03:20:54 pm »

The point is that every block you generate, you can fill up for free. Making it possible already for the forgers to set their minimum fee to zero, just not in a transparent way.

This is the case, Nxt transactions are free as long as you send the transaction on your forging turn, and if you have a large balance you can take multiple turns per day.  That is where I imagine the "service provider" feature comes into play eventually:

Quote
I can ask NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 to send out those 3500 messages monthly for 200 nxt fee.

If NXT-8MVA-XCVR-3JC9-2C7C3 starts a web service and becomes the next Coinbase for Nxt, they can offer free transactions to customers (up to a limit) and out-compete other forgers and Nxt service providers.

This works for the unbanked environment example as well, a payment service provider can purchase a stake in Nxt and figure out a rate of transactions per day that they can support for "free".

If someone writes a bullet proof script for me, I can set something like this up. Got a few M NXT dormant  all the time.

So this is the case where one big-ass forger would take zero tx fees.

But how many blocks are you forging per day with a "few M NXT"? I guess it's not sufficient to support thousands of tx per day.  ::)

So we need more "altruistic" forgers to get enough free txs for africa or similar use cases. And then we must decide how to effectively prevent spam. Right?
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TwinWinNerD

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2015, 03:25:11 pm »

About 10 a day. Also I never said I am altruistic and will do it for free ;)
with the current system I don't even thing the african TX should be on the blockchain. But a coinbase like "delayed" zero/near-zero fee sending might be interesting

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2015, 03:29:18 pm »

So we need more "altruistic" forgers to get enough free txs for africa or similar use cases. And then we must decide how to effectively prevent spam. Right?

Or pseudo-altruistic forgers who offer a cut-fee option in exchange for sign-ups which they monetize in other ways later...
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #89 on: July 24, 2015, 04:23:25 pm »

About 10 a day. Also I never said I am altruistic and will do it for free ;)
with the current system I don't even thing the african TX should be on the blockchain. But a coinbase like "delayed" zero/near-zero fee sending might be interesting

I don't understand, could you please elaborate on that.
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TwinWinNerD

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2015, 04:25:56 pm »

I don't think the current system is built for a flood of low value transactions. There must be better options. Like offchain transactions that are settled once a day. Don't forget NXT can only transact about 1.5 tx per second.

Sebastien256

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2015, 04:35:05 pm »

Don't forget NXT can only transact about 1.5 tx per second.

For now, a hard fork could change this. Same idea as the blocksize dilema with bitcoin.
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2015, 05:39:54 pm »

I don't think the current system is built for a flood of low value transactions. There must be better options. Like offchain transactions that are settled once a day. Don't forget NXT can only transact about 1.5 tx per second.

Ah, now I understand. I think it's a bit more - max. 255 tx per block every 60 seconds - but I must admit that you're right.

That doesn't mean that we are unable to scale up to this! We aren't bitcoin.
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2015, 01:03:35 pm »

If we could have settings in nxt.properties for the different tx types and their minimum fees, every node operator could decide for himself how much fee he wants to include a tx in a block. I think this is similar to what bitcoin nodes do while mining a block. What about a tx which is not included? Will it be included later by any forging node with lower fee settings?
Those transactions have a cost in block-chain storage, and the bandwidth for propagating blocks and transactions around the network. One thing I dislike about "forger decides for their own blocks" is that those costs are paid by everyone who runs a full node. It's not just the forger who forged the block who pays the costs of the transactions in the block. I agree with Jean-Luc that it could lead to a tragedy of the commons.

This hasn't much happened with Bitcoin so far, but I think that's because Bitcoin fees are a trivial portion of their revenue. It's swamped by the block reward. That may change as the block-reward halves and the income from fees becomes significant.
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Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2015, 01:17:09 pm »

If someone writes a bullet proof script for me, I can set something like this up. Got a few M NXT dormant  all the time.
Is a script for you all it needs, or does the sender of the transaction need to do something special too? It seems to me the person who creates the transaction needs to send it to you directly, because if it appears on the general network, some other forger will forge it and keep the fees.

(The transaction must have a valid fee to be accepted by the network when you forge it. You aren't accepting transactions with low fees; you're instead returning some of the fee in another transaction.)
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TwinWinNerD

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2015, 01:25:59 pm »

I know, it must be a script I can run on a server where people can feed signed TX

Brangdon

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2015, 01:27:08 pm »

We need pruning of MS transactions that do not affect NXT balances (other than the fee).
Surely their effect on MS balances also needs to be kept? Else how do you know an MS transaction is valid, if you don't know the MS balances? More pruning is better, but I don't see why NXT is different to other currencies here. Am I missing something? Is it to do with your vision for side-chains?

Quote
Without pruning I don't see a scalable way to have a single blockchain with fees that are low enough for African countries, yet high enough to prevent spammers from Western countries.
That seems to be the dilemma. Presumably even with multiple block-chains, there's nothing to stop rich Westerners spamming the poor African currencies. Low-value block-chains are vulnerable.
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CryptKeeper

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #97 on: July 27, 2015, 06:31:41 am »

Let me summarize the discussion about the tx fees so far.

  • we could generally lower the fees (0.1 to 0.5 NXT were mentioned), but we don't know if that is sufficient to support the "africa" use case
  • we could create a settings variable so that the forgers can decide for themselves, but JL warns that the tragedy of the commons could create a race to the bottom
  • twinwinnerd would give away "free" tx with his node if someone writes him a script

Any more ideas? Sure I must have forgotten to mention something.

IMHO twinwinnerd's idea is suitable for a test project (if the development is not too complicated), I would support him by leasing my nxt to his account.
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landomata

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #98 on: July 27, 2015, 07:07:59 am »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

TwinWinNerD

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Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #99 on: July 27, 2015, 09:12:58 am »

There is A LOT of different use cases we have in mind which can't work without lower fees...

The lower the fees the more things we can do with the platform....I think 0.01 Nxt as fee would still be high enough to protect against spam.

No it wouldn't. 700 blocks/day * 255 max tx * 0.01 NXT * 0.012$ = 21.4$ to fill ALL blocks up and increase the blocksize substantially. This is no longterm solution.
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