elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee? singapore
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Latest Stable Nxt Client: Nxt 1.12.2

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7  All

Author Topic: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?  (Read 25069 times)

xiahui135

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +15/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« on: May 23, 2015, 03:12:08 pm »

The 1 nxt transaction fee is pegging the nxt market cap to a range.
When the marker cap is high, then the transaction fee (in fiat) is high. People will reduce usage of nxt. This will lead the price fall in a long term period.
When the market cap is low, then because the good design of nxt, people will increase usage of nxt. This make the price go up.
If nxt price to to 0.15 usd again, then the transaction fee will be 0.15 usd. It will be  almost not usable for average joe, and the price will fall.

As to the forgers, they only get so little return form forg now. Reduce the fee do not have that big inpact to them. In fact the trading volum goes up will make the forg income recover slowly.

As to the blockchain inflation, we should find other way to support massive adoption. If not, nxt is just a tool not for massive use. No matter the nxt price is, it is not that important to the world.
Logged

blackyblack1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +165/-82
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1764
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2015, 03:42:44 pm »

Don't you think that this is designed this way intentionally? Maybe to stabilize NXT price over time...
Logged

TheCoinWizard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +97/-55
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 614
  • Learn by questioning everything!
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2015, 03:58:35 pm »

I agree with you on all you say, my idea is to wait for the voting in 1.5 to see what the forgers really think of it themselves.
Logged
Welcome to the After Nxt Calendar era...
Which started in the year 222 of the French Republic, Frost month, on the fifth day of the first week, better known as the 2456621th Julian day,
even better known as 24 November 2013 at 12:00:00 UTC.

maddy83

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +108/-50
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 292
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2015, 04:57:43 pm »

The 1 nxt transaction fee is pegging the nxt market cap to a range.
When the marker cap is high, then the transaction fee (in fiat) is high. People will reduce usage of nxt. This will lead the price fall in a long term period.
When the market cap is low, then because the good design of nxt, people will increase usage of nxt. This make the price go up.
If nxt price to to 0.15 usd again, then the transaction fee will be 0.15 usd. It will be  almost not usable for average joe, and the price will fall.

As to the forgers, they only get so little return form forg now. Reduce the fee do not have that big inpact to them. In fact the trading volum goes up will make the forg income recover slowly.

As to the blockchain inflation, we should find other way to support massive adoption. If not, nxt is just a tool not for massive use. No matter the nxt price is, it is not that important to the world.

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT. One could argue that lower transaction fee leads to blockchain bloat and harms NXT.

If you make a claim that $0.15 is "not usable for average joe", please explain how you come to this conclusion. Compare that to what current widely used payment systems (Visa, Paypal, etc) charge. Many payment systems take a certain percentage as a fee, not a flat fee, so it ends up being orders of magnitude higher than NXT fee, and people happily pay it. I would happily pay 1% of every transaction I make, if I had a payment system of "best of both worlds" (best features of crypto and wide acceptance of fiat).

And for trading, well, many people trade on exchanges, so NXT fee has zero effect on that. There is AE of course, and I can see the transaction fee adding up if you have a bot which executes lots of trades. But again, this has nothing to do with "average joe".
Logged
Will do small programming tasks for NXT. PM me!

maddy83

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +108/-50
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 292
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2015, 05:04:55 pm »

How are accounts going to be biased in 1.5 for voting?

How is it decided that a single entity hasn't created lots of accounts to try and swing a vote?

1 NXT = 1 vote. Number of accounts makes no difference.
Logged
Will do small programming tasks for NXT. PM me!

TheCoinWizard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +97/-55
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 614
  • Learn by questioning everything!
    • View Profile
Logged
Welcome to the After Nxt Calendar era...
Which started in the year 222 of the French Republic, Frost month, on the fifth day of the first week, better known as the 2456621th Julian day,
even better known as 24 November 2013 at 12:00:00 UTC.

xiahui135

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +15/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2015, 08:55:21 am »

The 1 nxt transaction fee is pegging the nxt market cap to a range.
When the marker cap is high, then the transaction fee (in fiat) is high. People will reduce usage of nxt. This will lead the price fall in a long term period.
When the market cap is low, then because the good design of nxt, people will increase usage of nxt. This make the price go up.
If nxt price to to 0.15 usd again, then the transaction fee will be 0.15 usd. It will be  almost not usable for average joe, and the price will fall.

As to the forgers, they only get so little return form forg now. Reduce the fee do not have that big inpact to them. In fact the trading volum goes up will make the forg income recover slowly.

As to the blockchain inflation, we should find other way to support massive adoption. If not, nxt is just a tool not for massive use. No matter the nxt price is, it is not that important to the world.

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT. One could argue that lower transaction fee leads to blockchain bloat and harms NXT.

If you make a claim that $0.15 is "not usable for average joe", please explain how you come to this conclusion. Compare that to what current widely used payment systems (Visa, Paypal, etc) charge. Many payment systems take a certain percentage as a fee, not a flat fee, so it ends up being orders of magnitude higher than NXT fee, and people happily pay it. I would happily pay 1% of every transaction I make, if I had a payment system of "best of both worlds" (best features of crypto and wide acceptance of fiat).

And for trading, well, many people trade on exchanges, so NXT fee has zero effect on that. There is AE of course, and I can see the transaction fee adding up if you have a bot which executes lots of trades. But again, this has nothing to do with "average joe".
No massive data. I myself like the asset exchange, but I hate place orders more frequencily. Because 0.01 usd fee is not cheap too.
Logged

xiahui135

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +15/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2015, 09:06:03 am »

Expensive or not, is for the use case. For the decentralised exchange, it is too expensive.
In poloniex, there is large percentage of orders under 500 nxt. They will not like SAE, because the decentralized exchange is much expensive than the centered ones.

At this level of fee, even the instantDEX come out, this will not help much to nxt adoption.
Logged

crimi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +122/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 863
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2015, 09:26:12 am »

transfer 1 Nxt, pay 1 Nxt fee

This is the awkward moment you dont have with bitcoin or cash.
If i had see something like that on the street i would think its a scam.  :-X
Impossible to do marketing with that fee.


Logged

bizz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +22/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 285
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2015, 10:47:06 am »

I see 2 possible reasons for high fee: prevent spam/bloat and reward (rich) forgers.

1. Prevent spam or blockchain bloat
Is this an issue at all? All coins have low really low fee and they don't have spam  and if successful have same amount of blockchain bloat. If any crypto was to be mainstream successful it inevitably means thousands of tx per second so no fee will prevent bloat.  More likely fee will prevent being successful. IMO 99% of future users will use lite clients anyway. I'm already using lite clients on my local desktops and only have server as full node due to limited SSD space.
 
2. Forgers
This could be an issue due to no other reward from PoS. Maybe rich guys will keep servers and forge for low fees maybe not. I think being NXT rich makes some percent of you automatically wanting to protect your investment. Something like Pareto principle will probably work here so some percentage will never forge 24/7, some will always...some will hallmark, ddos protect and some not regardless of fees.

Edit: Just sent small amount of BTC and paid $0.06  fee. As long as NXT fees are less than BTC we're fine :D


« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 02:14:17 pm by bizz »
Logged

xiahui135

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +15/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2015, 10:56:51 am »

At the current rate, when are you ever going to send someone just $0.011? Maybe as a website tip but I don't think it happens all that often. And I don't think we need to worry about third-world countries (at the moment) because I don't think they're the people investing in Nxt.
Lower the fee is not for the ones who invest in NXT, but the ones who use NXT.

What situation can NXT be used?
Money transfer just a small use case which is not that often.
But the decentralized exchange need lower fee to become stronger. It is expensive for trades under 500 nxt. (or even higher, because many times I place an order I have to cancel it. It cost something but the centralized ones not.)

If we keep the fee high, then some kind of applications will be hard to survive on the NXT chain. Such as MAIL\Chat\Trade
Logged

maddy83

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +108/-50
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 292
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2015, 01:40:42 pm »

No massive data. I myself like the asset exchange, but I hate place orders more frequencily. Because 0.01 usd fee is not cheap too.

But the decentralized exchange need lower fee to become stronger. It is expensive for trades under 500 nxt. (or even higher, because many times I place an order I have to cancel it. It cost something but the centralized ones not.)

So you want to place lots of orders on the AE... to run some arbitrage bot or something? I can see you want lower fees for that.

However, I don't see how you extend this to a claim that fees are holding back NXT adoption for the "average joe". The average joe is not a daytrader. He will place few trades on AE now and then, and will mostly hold assets for the long term.

Sure, the fee of 1 NXT might feel expensive for trades under 100 NXT, but why should we encourage such microtransactions? Dividend payments are a special case, but I understand that issue was already solved so that dividends can be sent to multiple recipients with one transaction.

The only benefit of lower fees in AE that I can see would be increased liquidity and smaller bid-ask-spread. I can see this would mostly help active traders and people who run bots, not the average joe. So please explain how is this holding back NXT?
Logged
Will do small programming tasks for NXT. PM me!

xiahui135

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +15/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2015, 02:17:54 pm »

No massive data. I myself like the asset exchange, but I hate place orders more frequencily. Because 0.01 usd fee is not cheap too.

But the decentralized exchange need lower fee to become stronger. It is expensive for trades under 500 nxt. (or even higher, because many times I place an order I have to cancel it. It cost something but the centralized ones not.)

So you want to place lots of orders on the AE... to run some arbitrage bot or something? I can see you want lower fees for that.

However, I don't see how you extend this to a claim that fees are holding back NXT adoption for the "average joe". The average joe is not a daytrader. He will place few trades on AE now and then, and will mostly hold assets for the long term.

Sure, the fee of 1 NXT might feel expensive for trades under 100 NXT, but why should we encourage such microtransactions? Dividend payments are a special case, but I understand that issue was already solved so that dividends can be sent to multiple recipients with one transaction.

The only benefit of lower fees in AE that I can see would be increased liquidity and smaller bid-ask-spread. I can see this would mostly help active traders and people who run bots, not the average joe. So please explain how is this holding back NXT?
I do not do arbitrage, and I am not a daytrader. I am just a small NXT investor.
I just check AE 2 or 3 time every week from 2 months ago. Sometimes I want to buy a asset. I place an order, it costs 1 nxt, even many times it does not make a deal. For my small trades, it is expensive to trade in the AE than poloniex.
I feel the 1 nxt fee is high, and will hesitate whether to place an order. When I want to cancel the order, I must pay another 1 NXT. Others will maybe feel the same. We may feel 1 nxt may value 1 USD, 10 USD in future, and we do not want spend nxt like this.
I am just a small investor, and I am here talk my feeling. I want NXT succeed, and the price go to the moon. But the system can not handle large scale trade data, it is so far from succeed. And the 1 nxt fee is one of the problem. (and the system capacity is another)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 02:25:01 pm by xiahui135 »
Logged

maddy83

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +108/-50
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 292
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2015, 04:17:17 pm »

I do not do arbitrage, and I am not a daytrader. I am just a small NXT investor.
I just check AE 2 or 3 time every week from 2 months ago. Sometimes I want to buy a asset. I place an order, it costs 1 nxt, even many times it does not make a deal. For my small trades, it is expensive to trade in the AE than poloniex.
I feel the 1 nxt fee is high, and will hesitate whether to place an order. When I want to cancel the order, I must pay another 1 NXT. Others will maybe feel the same. We may feel 1 nxt may value 1 USD, 10 USD in future, and we do not want spend nxt like this.
I am just a small investor, and I am here talk my feeling. I want NXT succeed, and the price go to the moon. But the system can not handle large scale trade data, it is so far from succeed. And the 1 nxt fee is one of the problem. (and the system capacity is another)

We all want NXT to succeed and "go to the moon". If lowering the fee helps, it should be done, no question about it. I just have trouble understanding your argument, because personally I have never felt that the fee of 1 NXT is a problem.

Having more trading and liquidity on the AE is a good thing for sure, and I can see that eventually helping the whole NXT economy, not just traders. The downside is that people who support the network get lower reward for their work. And then there's the problem of blockchain bloat to be solved. The current database is around 1.4 GB for me.
Logged
Will do small programming tasks for NXT. PM me!

Brangdon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +229/-25
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1389
  • Quality is addictive.
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2015, 07:54:19 pm »

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT.
Philosophically, a major benefit of PoS over PoW is its efficiency. However, it's hard to argue that while Nxt transactions are so expensive and Bitcoin transactions are free (if they satisfy conditions of coin age etc).
Logged

maddy83

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +108/-50
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 292
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2015, 06:25:20 am »

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT.
Philosophically, a major benefit of PoS over PoW is its efficiency. However, it's hard to argue that while Nxt transactions are so expensive and Bitcoin transactions are free (if they satisfy conditions of coin age etc).

You are comparing apples to oranges. PoW is constantly "printing money" in the form of block rewards. Minimal fees may work in PoW because miners are rewarded in any case, which is not the case in PoS.
Logged
Will do small programming tasks for NXT. PM me!

dsattler

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +4/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2015, 07:12:13 am »

I'm not convinced the transaction fee is what is holding back the price (and market cap) of NXT.
Philosophically, a major benefit of PoS over PoW is its efficiency. However, it's hard to argue that while Nxt transactions are so expensive and Bitcoin transactions are free (if they satisfy conditions of coin age etc).

You are comparing apples to oranges. PoW is constantly "printing money" in the form of block rewards. Minimal fees may work in PoW because miners are rewarded in any case, which is not the case in PoS.

Yes!
And bitcoin tx are also not completely free when you want them confirmed in a reasonable time. IMHO this "pay more fees - get faster confirmation" model is not working well and shouldn't be used in a 2.0 crypto.
Logged
Selling nxt-related domain names: https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=9434.msg185034
Verkaufe Nxt-bezogene Domain-Namen: https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=9436.msg185038

Damelon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +792/-54
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2314
    • View Profile
    • Nxt Inside
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2015, 04:48:12 pm »

I'd like to see them lowered too over time, if only because 1 ct cán be a lot of money if we take off our western-centric glasses :)

But that's a personal preference.
Logged
Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
Join Nxt Slack! https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/
Founder of Blockchain Workspace | Personal Site & Blog

maddy83

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +108/-50
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 292
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2015, 06:53:34 pm »

The poor people of Africa (and other continents) weren't forgotten by me. It would make me immensely happy to see them convert to crypto. Their currencies are much worse than USD or EUR with things like inflation, corruption and other problems. They probably need crypto a lot more than we westerners do. I'm just saying that we probably need to win over the west first.

The discussion about lowering the fees has been an ongoing issue on the forums for as long as I remember. We have seen lots of arguments for and against, and lots of opinions and beliefs, but very little concrete facts. I'm open to lowering the fees, keeping them same, or even raising them. I wish the people who say the fee should be lowered would present something concrete, like a calculation of how lowering the fees to 0.5 NXT does X and Y and helps increase NXT adoption by Z%.

It's probably not a good idea to hold a vote until the issue has been researched a bit more, and facts are presented to people who do the voting. Voting doesn't work if people don't have reasonable knowledge of the issue they are voting for.
Logged
Will do small programming tasks for NXT. PM me!

Tosch110

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +211/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2365
    • View Profile
Re: Can we vote whether lower the transaction fee?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2015, 07:02:52 pm »

Voting doesn't work if people don't have reasonable knowledge of the issue they are voting for.

That would be so nice... if people would educate them before voting... :D

But on topic, I would really like to see that we could start with adding "fee" to http://localhost:7876/nxt?requestType=getConstants

For now, everyone using Nxt is hardcoding the fee, it will lead to an immense change as soon as we are planning to change the fees. So adding them to getConstants or make an own API for "getFee" and add "standard" (currently = 100000000 NQT), "issueCurrency", "issuePoll" and so on
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7  All
 

elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
assembly
assembly