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A Modest Proposal singapore
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Author Topic: A Modest Proposal  (Read 2618 times)

PoofKnuckle

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A Modest Proposal
« on: March 29, 2016, 06:56:08 pm »

Seeing the discussions about how to keep paying for the core dev's work, plus marketing, I have a proposal. I don't recall seeing this before.

We have transaction fees going to forgers. Why not divert some portion of each transaction fee into an account that gets used for paying core devs for ongoing work, and maybe for marketing too? I am proposing that this be built into the next version of NXT.

I think even forgers would be in favor of this, since it would fund both marketing and on-going development, both of which should lead to more users, and hence more transactions.

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Sebastien256

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2016, 07:04:04 pm »

That a good idea! I like it. I would be willing to give away a share of the fees I collect.

It has the good side that it would motivate the the team so that the transaction increase.

That is way better than a ICO!
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Nxter

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2016, 07:04:25 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5JUXPabW1I

Marc de Mesel had the same idea.
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Peter2516

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 07:19:29 pm »

Hardcoding to send profits to some account... Who would have control over that account? Who decides who gets paid from the account? Hmm... sounds tricky and somewhat centralized. Reminds me of the time Bitshares proposed to hardcode rewards for their devs, which caused quite a shitstorm iirc.
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Sebastien256

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2016, 07:21:45 pm »

It could be an account where nobody hold the key or a special account without key. Only voting by NXT will be able to move the NXT in that special account to another one.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 07:32:21 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Peter2516

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2016, 07:23:27 pm »

Haha, smart thinking!

How much money are we talking about btw?
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Sebastien256

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2016, 07:28:32 pm »

Haha, smart thinking!

How much money are we talking about btw?

Peanuts at the moment, but if NXT is to be successfull that should be enought.
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devlux

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2016, 08:02:38 pm »

Haha, smart thinking!

How much money are we talking about btw?

Peanuts at the moment, but if NXT is to be successfull that should be enought.

Here's the problem with the idea.  Who chooses the devs that get paid and for what?  One dev might make a slight change that has HUGE repercussions across the board for everyone and doubling or tripling the value of the coin overnight, yet be completely unsung.

Another dev might completely replace the UI making it slick, quick and intuitive but having no repercussions on the coin itself.  A major UI change has enormous visibility and everyone will see it, interact with it every day. 

People are going to see the work of the two devs and they in the first case they might not care or understand anything about what the first dev did, but the second guy...  Hot damn!  That's a slick UI!  Let's pay him.

You could say "pay everyone equally", but then that's not fair to the devs either.  Dev A, might be quiet for months working on a new feature and his repo might be barren until a single large push.  This is especially true if the feature touches on a ton of different areas that are all interdependent.  Dev B could be pushing tens of small changes a day.  His commit history could have hundreds or thousands of changes a month.

Who you going to pay?  How does a system like that work in reality?

To my mind a "pay on delivery" system is much better. 

By this I mean... "Implementing a system where any changes to core require a vote of the stakeholders to become part of the system, but the dev sets the fee that they want for their work in exchange for releasing it."

Speaking as a developer who uses freelance bespoke software development to feed his kids, the developer is really the only one who knows how much their time and effort was worth to them.  Not a foundation, not another dev, not the group at large, not even the stakeholders. 

The flipside is that I can develop software all day long, but if it doesn't provide a value add to you, there is no reason for you to pay for it, nor should you be forced to run it.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2016, 08:05:37 pm »

Was thinking the same, great idea Poofknuckle! :)


To my mind a "pay on delivery" system is much better. 

By this I mean... "Implementing a system where any changes to core require a vote of the stakeholders to become part of the system, but the dev sets the fee that they want for their work in exchange for releasing it."

Speaking as a developer who uses freelance bespoke software development to feed his kids, the developer is really the only one who knows how much their time and effort was worth to them.  Not a foundation, not another dev, not the group at large, not even the stakeholders. 

The flipside is that I can develop software all day long, but if it doesn't provide a value add to you, there is no reason for you to pay for it, nor should you be forced to run it.

And this another great idea devlux, I love it!!! :)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 08:08:47 pm by Marc De Mesel »
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Sebastien256

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2016, 08:10:41 pm »

The way I see it is that polls would be organized by the NXT foundation or some kind of commitee. The fund would be centrally administrated but only Nxter would have the last word on where the fees goes by their stake power.

Nxter votes on the polls organize by the committee and polls is valid only if like 20% of NXT participate in the vote. The later measure is to avoid polls spam by account not related with the committee.

Is pay on delivery system exist? Not sure how it would work in practice.
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PoofKnuckle

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2016, 08:43:23 pm »

Was thinking the same, great idea Poofknuckle! :)

Looking above, it looks like you had already suggested this. Glad to see this has occurred to someone else, I thought there must be some very obvious flaw if no had brought it up before.

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devlux

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2016, 08:43:31 pm »

The way I see it is that polls would be organized by the NXT foundation or some kind of commitee. The fund would be centrally administrated but only Nxter would have the last word on where the fees goes by their stake power.

Nxter votes on the polls organize by the committee and polls is valid only if like 20% of NXT participate in the vote. The later measure is to avoid polls spam by account not related with the committee.

Is pay on delivery system exist? Not sure how it would work in practice.

If someone wants to escrow 2.5M NXT for the project; I could fork core, make the necessary changes and submit a PR with the required changes to mainline.  ETA for delivery would be 90 days from the escrow fill date.

It would then be up to the community to convince the core devs to merge it and make it "official". 
Nothing I propose would break existing NXT functionality, but to bootstrap the initial stage would require a majority of nodes to upgrade to the model.

The work to do this is fairly straightforward and I'm reasonably familiar with the current codebase.

I can draw up a whitepaper explaining the concept in detail, but I would want to see some commitment on the general idea from the community before I take the time to do anymore than that. 

I'm not interested in using foundations, or any other centralized control mechanisms. 
I'm also not interested in alienating the current devs. 
My method wouldn't require any of that.

If a trusted member will step up and offer to handle the initial escrow I'll start work on the white paper.  After that, it would be up to the community to fund the escrow before development would proceed.  If I fail to deliver a PR in 90 days, the funds could either be returned to the contributors, or used to seed a dev fund for someone else to implement it.  Contributors choice.

Sound fair?
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farl4bit

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2016, 09:03:55 pm »

Haha, I had that idea too.  https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/nxt-a-business-model-smart-fees/msg213886/#msg213886

But I don't know if it is decentralised enough.  :-\
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Sebastien256

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2016, 09:10:51 pm »

@devlux would it require a fork?
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devlux

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2016, 09:18:45 pm »

@devlux would it require a fork?

By definition, no.

It would be a modification to core that supports a method of systemic improvement of NXT while compensating developers.
The initial implementation would need to be "blessed" by the current devs and incorporated into mainline, which is just part of the regular upgrade process.
It would use the existing tech so no modifying the blockchain is required, but a majority of users would need to upgrade in order for the system to work correctly.

I'm divided on calling it Systemic Improvement of NXT (SIN)  or Systemic Improvement Protocol (SIP), though :)
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Sebastien256

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2016, 09:27:23 pm »

Well, it is rare that people propose to code something new. So I will offer to be an escrow for your project. I'm here with NXT comminity since a long time, December 2013, and some people know my real identity.

I think it would be appropriate for a new topic to be create.

2.5 million NXT is a lot of money. I guess it would need to be something big and very slick. The core devs would need to accept the white paper before you start coding anything because I think people that will finance this project will want it to be implement in the end.
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devlux

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2016, 10:02:09 pm »

Well, it is rare that people propose to code something new. So I will offer to be an escrow for your project. I'm here with NXT comminity since a long time, December 2013, and some people know my real identity.

I think it would be appropriate for a new topic to be create.

2.5 million NXT is a lot of money. I guess it would need to be something big and very slick. The core devs would need to accept the white paper before you start coding anything because I think people that will finance this project will want it to be implement in the end.

Thank you for the offer, but the terms are what they are for a reason.

Please don't think of anything I'm saying here as demanding.  The intent is to stress my reasoning for the offer and a change of terms would change the entire value proposition for me.

It's pretty much the point of the whole excersize that the core devs would be expected to respond to the community, by accepting the PR when it's pushed to their repo. 
Only the community can do that sort of lobbying.  I'm not going to do it. I don't have the time, resources or desire to get involved in another holy war.

The entire purpose of this is to decentralize development.  So honestly ask yourself, what do you think the core devs are going to say?

Thus the PR is the claim ticket.  The fact that the escrow reached it's funding requirement is my authority to proceed and my guarantee of payment.

Thus I'll put my entire proposal into a whitepaper at no charge and make it publicly available for everyone. 
The devs can read it as easy as you can, but I'm not concerned with their opinion on the matter.

If you like the whitepaper, contribute to the escrow.  If you don't like it, then don't contribute.  If the escrow doesn't fund I won't start the work.

As soon as the escrow is fully funded I'll begin development work.
Once the development work is done, my proof of claim is the Pull Request at which point I expect to be paid in full. 
But it's the fact that I issued a PR which matches the whitepaper which represents fulfillment of my end of the contract here, not it's acceptance into mainline and not agreement from anyone. 

In otherwords funding the escrow is agreeing that this is a good idea and you want to pay me to implement it.

If the devs accept it or not, or if they accept the whitepaper or not, has no bearing on whether I'm paid or not. 
I don't work for them and I don't work for a foundation. 

I work for the people who pay me, that means if this is funded, I work for you.

As for cost, the idea is that the developer is the only one who knows what their time is worth.  I'm telling you what my time is worth and offering it at a discount.  A decent quality programmer will cost you about $120k per year.  That's $10k per month.

2.5M NXT is only around $20K USD at current prices and that's assuming the USD/NXT value doesn't slip any further. 
I locked it to NXT because I believe in the currency and what this project stands for as a statement from the community.
My bet here is that the USD/NXT rate will rise enough to cover the opportunity cost.
 
However if you can find a more competent dev who will work for less money for 3 months on a project with no money up front, then I highly encourage you to hire them instead, just make sure they are separately escrowed. :)

Does what I'm saying make sense?
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Sebastien256

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Re: A Modest Proposal
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2016, 10:11:43 pm »

I will pm you.
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