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[Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
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Author Topic: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack  (Read 4621 times)

Damelon

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[Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« on: April 10, 2016, 06:38:41 pm »

Tomorrow at 18:00 UTC, there will be another Core Dev Q&A in the Nxtchat Slack.

Join them via https://nxtchat.herokuapp.com/!

To find your own time, go to http://www.timebie.com/index.php
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Damelon

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2016, 04:59:52 pm »

Bump!

One hour to go!
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Damelon

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2016, 08:08:23 pm »

For those who missed it, here are the logs from this evening's Q&A.

Thanks to all who participated, these talks are nice! :)

http://pastebin.com/8UmKpYvE
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farl4bit

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2016, 08:49:31 pm »

For those who missed it, here are the logs from this evening's Q&A.

Thanks to all who participated, these talks are nice! :)

http://pastebin.com/8UmKpYvE

Great stuff about the election sustem that wants to use Nxt for it.  :)
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remix

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2016, 08:56:56 pm »

Devlux didn't want it published yet, so perhaps best to keep that part out of the forums.
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devlux

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2016, 10:48:12 pm »

Devlux didn't want it published yet, so perhaps best to keep that part out of the forums.

It's going to be contingent upon testing at this point.  Otherwise it's a go.  But let the democracycounts.org team make the official announce here and other places please.  :D

Reading the logs, I had no idea I was that chatty, sorry folks if you couldn't get a word in edgewise because of me.
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Damelon

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2016, 10:52:42 pm »

It's good to have a buzzing channel once in a while.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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devlux

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2016, 11:39:55 pm »

It's good to have a buzzing channel once in a while.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Question?
Should the pilot use testNXT or regular NXT?  I ask because it's a matter of resources.  If we use real NXT then acquiring that much NXT needs to budgeted for.  250 locations, 15 machines, 1 vote per machine on avg of 5 mins is about 1M NXT that will need to be acquired over the next month.
$8,200 at current rates according to the napkin in front of me.  It's certainly affordable, but if testNXT could be used, this part of the pilot funding could be used to make media noise and we could still claim "NXT Inside" or whatever the NXT market push is right now.

Also using testNXT has the advantage of not overloading regular NXT for transaction purposes. 
Since it's an independent poll at a primary for this stage, it would make more sense wouldn't it?
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martismartis

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2016, 04:51:45 am »

It's good to have a buzzing channel once in a while.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Question?
Should the pilot use testNXT or regular NXT?  I ask because it's a matter of resources.  If we use real NXT then acquiring that much NXT needs to budgeted for.  250 locations, 15 machines, 1 vote per machine on avg of 5 mins is about 1M NXT that will need to be acquired over the next month.
$8,200 at current rates according to the napkin in front of me.  It's certainly affordable, but if testNXT could be used, this part of the pilot funding could be used to make media noise and we could still claim "NXT Inside" or whatever the NXT market push is right now.

Also using testNXT has the advantage of not overloading regular NXT for transaction purposes. 
Since it's an independent poll at a primary for this stage, it would make more sense wouldn't it?

It would be good that test be done on mainnet with demand to buy 1M NXT for it, good for price :)

On a serious note, yes, we have testnet, it's parallel NXT space with all mainnet features and you cn test everything on it. BTW, what are alternative blockchain technologies for your project you or your company are looking for?
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Sebastien256

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2016, 06:55:05 am »

It's good to have a buzzing channel once in a while.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Question?
Should the pilot use testNXT or regular NXT?  I ask because it's a matter of resources.  If we use real NXT then acquiring that much NXT needs to budgeted for.  250 locations, 15 machines, 1 vote per machine on avg of 5 mins is about 1M NXT that will need to be acquired over the next month.
$8,200 at current rates according to the napkin in front of me.  It's certainly affordable, but if testNXT could be used, this part of the pilot funding could be used to make media noise and we could still claim "NXT Inside" or whatever the NXT market push is right now.

Also using testNXT has the advantage of not overloading regular NXT for transaction purposes. 
Since it's an independent poll at a primary for this stage, it would make more sense wouldn't it?

One thing to take into account is that testnet network is muchn smaller. I don't know if it this can have an impact on performwnce. Also on testnet there is no achieve node, because all the data is frequently erase on the testnet, afaik.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2016, 07:33:03 am »

Question?
Should the pilot use testNXT or regular NXT?  I ask because it's a matter of resources.  If we use real NXT then acquiring that much NXT needs to budgeted for.  250 locations, 15 machines, 1 vote per machine on avg of 5 mins is about 1M NXT that will need to be acquired over the next month.
$8,200 at current rates according to the napkin in front of me.  It's certainly affordable, but if testNXT could be used, this part of the pilot funding could be used to make media noise and we could still claim "NXT Inside" or whatever the NXT market push is right now.

Also using testNXT has the advantage of not overloading regular NXT for transaction purposes. 
Since it's an independent poll at a primary for this stage, it would make more sense wouldn't it?

I am getting worried about the effect this will have on performance, not just because of the transaction volume but because all transactions are being sent from the same account, i.e. have the same sender_id. This will seriously lower the cardinality of the database index we have on transaction.sender_id, and kill performance for the most common queries like getBlockchainTransactions which retrieve transactions for a given account. With the numbers you are talking about, currently we have 2M transactions, if you add another 1M but all with the same sender, this would be 1/3 of the records having the same sender_id. We have seen such problem before when all asset exchange transactions were using the Genesis account as recipient, and the solution was to change them to not have a recipient, i.e. use null. Doesn't work for your case obviously. Can you think of any way to use different sender accounts, e.g. one account per voting machine, or at least per location?
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bcdev

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2016, 01:57:38 pm »

It should be quite simple to just make a pool of 1000 accounts [every machine has privkey to each accounts] and just send a vote from a random one.
Code: [Select]
bool vote_sent = false;
while(!vote_sent):
    if(send_vote(accounts[random() % 1000], candidate) == true)
        vote_sent = true;
This way you don't even need to have any balancing - if one of the accounts becomes empty, voting machines will just use another random one.
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martismartis

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2016, 02:56:49 pm »

I think in most countries voting happens in some special voting location in some region. After voting is finished, resultas are gathered and presented by every voting location. So, separate NXT address for separate voting location (booth) could solve this problem of huge amount of tx from one address.
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devlux

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2016, 08:11:24 pm »

Question?
Should the pilot use testNXT or regular NXT?  I ask because it's a matter of resources.  If we use real NXT then acquiring that much NXT needs to budgeted for.  250 locations, 15 machines, 1 vote per machine on avg of 5 mins is about 1M NXT that will need to be acquired over the next month.
$8,200 at current rates according to the napkin in front of me.  It's certainly affordable, but if testNXT could be used, this part of the pilot funding could be used to make media noise and we could still claim "NXT Inside" or whatever the NXT market push is right now.

Also using testNXT has the advantage of not overloading regular NXT for transaction purposes. 
Since it's an independent poll at a primary for this stage, it would make more sense wouldn't it?

I am getting worried about the effect this will have on performance, not just because of the transaction volume but because all transactions are being sent from the same account, i.e. have the same sender_id. This will seriously lower the cardinality of the database index we have on transaction.sender_id, and kill performance for the most common queries like getBlockchainTransactions which retrieve transactions for a given account. With the numbers you are talking about, currently we have 2M transactions, if you add another 1M but all with the same sender, this would be 1/3 of the records having the same sender_id. We have seen such problem before when all asset exchange transactions were using the Genesis account as recipient, and the solution was to change them to not have a recipient, i.e. use null. Doesn't work for your case obviously. Can you think of any way to use different sender accounts, e.g. one account per voting machine, or at least per location?

Oh Jean Luc, sorry I can see how you could read what I said that way but it's a misread.

Each voting machine does have a unique NXT address.

So you would see a single polling location with 12 to 15 machines.  Each machine generating a single transaction about once every 5 mins.

The other part of the confusion comes from the fact that I had asked was about destination address for the message. 
Should they all share a single destination address, or is it better for them to send the message to themselves?

These messages are plain text and it's intended that anyone can read them.  We just need to make sure that the auditor/tally person / machine is able to (re)view the result as they occur and again after the election.  Max expectation would be around 90 days, but a fully adjudacted election might drag on for a few years.  No need to make the entire world hold those results 90 days should be enough to make a secure backup.
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devlux

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2016, 08:15:21 pm »

It's good to have a buzzing channel once in a while.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Question?
Should the pilot use testNXT or regular NXT?  I ask because it's a matter of resources.  If we use real NXT then acquiring that much NXT needs to budgeted for.  250 locations, 15 machines, 1 vote per machine on avg of 5 mins is about 1M NXT that will need to be acquired over the next month.
$8,200 at current rates according to the napkin in front of me.  It's certainly affordable, but if testNXT could be used, this part of the pilot funding could be used to make media noise and we could still claim "NXT Inside" or whatever the NXT market push is right now.

Also using testNXT has the advantage of not overloading regular NXT for transaction purposes. 
Since it's an independent poll at a primary for this stage, it would make more sense wouldn't it?

One thing to take into account is that testnet network is muchn smaller. I don't know if it this can have an impact on performwnce. Also on testnet there is no achieve node, because all the data is frequently erase on the testnet, afaik.

Yeah I'm concerned about that.  However I think we would be spinning up full nodes at each polling location. 
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devlux

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Jean-Luc

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2016, 06:37:14 am »

The other part of the confusion comes from the fact that I had asked was about destination address for the message. 
Should they all share a single destination address, or is it better for them to send the message to themselves?
I think it is best to use no recipient at all, then we will have null in the transaction.recipient_id column. If you do want a recipient for some reason, set it to be same as the sender for each, now that you clarified that each voting machine uses a different sender. Otherwise if all messages have the same recipient, it again creates a problem with low cardinality of the index on transaction.recipient_id this time, which is also queried by getBlockchainTransactions.
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devlux

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Re: [Q&A] 11-04-2016 18:00 UTC Core Dev Q&A on Nxtchat Slack
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2016, 11:20:25 pm »

The other part of the confusion comes from the fact that I had asked was about destination address for the message. 
Should they all share a single destination address, or is it better for them to send the message to themselves?
I think it is best to use no recipient at all, then we will have null in the transaction.recipient_id column. If you do want a recipient for some reason, set it to be same as the sender for each, now that you clarified that each voting machine uses a different sender. Otherwise if all messages have the same recipient, it again creates a problem with low cardinality of the index on transaction.recipient_id this time, which is also queried by getBlockchainTransactions.

Thank you this is extremely helpful.  I'll be including it in the whitepaper.
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