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[POLL] The IPO idea.
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Author Topic: [POLL] The IPO idea.  (Read 19741 times)

abctc

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2016, 12:15:49 pm »

.. why not hold even part of collected amount in NXT and sell when need arise.
- I think because "NXTs are not coins ... They are tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt."  (c) BCNext
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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2016, 12:26:49 pm »

- I think because "NXTs are not coins ... They are tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt."  (c) BCNext
+1440!!  ;D

maxll

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2016, 12:41:03 pm »

.. why not hold even part of collected amount in NXT and sell when need arise.
- I think because "NXTs are not coins ... They are tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt."  (c) BCNext

What if someone tries to steal these privileges which are BCNext granted for me two and a half years ago?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 06:30:01 pm by maxll »
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Jacinto

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2016, 01:36:55 pm »

Where is BCNext when we need him?  ::)
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lurker10

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2016, 01:50:16 pm »

Where is BCNext when we need him?  ::)

What do you need him for? besides, he's probably that 50m biggest account forging.
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NxtSwe

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2016, 01:50:36 pm »

This dilution of the tokens thing is nothing new.
Governments are doing it all the time, kings have done it for hundreds of years. Hell, ancient roman emperors did it 2000 years ago.

The common problem is that you need funds in order to get something done, but you, as a king don't have enough, so what do you do?
You melt the gold coins and put some copper there instead, giving you more coins, but making each coin worth less.

If we go down this path, please bare in mind what it will mean in the future.
NXT might be known as the coin where you, at any time can loose some of your % of tokens because other people think so.

In my eyes this coin will have lost all its credibility.
What happens next time we run out of money? Will there be a new IPO then?

I do understand that having this tax is the easy way raise funds among the proposed ways of funding the 2.0 project.
But if that is the path this community is choosing, I might as well go on with my fiat and continue being taxed by my government.
At least I get "free" healthcare out of it.
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bitme

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2016, 01:59:03 pm »

.. why not hold even part of collected amount in NXT and sell when need arise.
- I think because "NXTs are not coins ... They are tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt."  (c) BCNext

What if someone tries to steal these privileges which granted BCNext for me two and a half years ago?
If we decide it can even be called sheep, whatever.

As far as I remember NXT first of all was SUPPOSED to be changed on social consensus and if decided that way NXT 2.0 is not steeling privileges but rather transfer of privileges which conditions have to be decided
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 02:13:40 pm by bitme »
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Logan

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2016, 02:07:57 pm »

[..]
If we go down this path, please bare in mind what it will mean in the future.
NXT might be known as the coin where you, at any time can loose some of your % of tokens because other people think so.

In my eyes this coin will have lost all its credibility.
What happens next time we run out of money? Will there be a new IPO then?
[...]

Cant say it in a better way. That will have a big Impact into the trust of the nxt value.
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abctc

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2016, 02:30:22 pm »

NXT might be known as the coin where you, at any time can loose some of your % of tokens because other people think so.
- how is it that you loose % of NXT tokens due to IPO ?   NXT tokens still allow you to forge (to compose) Nxt blocks and gain tx commision (in NXT).  So nothing changes to your NXT tokens.
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NxtSwe

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2016, 02:52:04 pm »

NXT might be known as the coin where you, at any time can loose some of your % of tokens because other people think so.
- how is it that you loose % of NXT tokens due to IPO ?   NXT tokens still allow you to forge (to compose) Nxt blocks and gain tx commision (in NXT).  So nothing changes to your NXT tokens.

Hmmmm.. not sure if I follow you here.
Are you talking about the NXT child chain, or do you mean fNXT?
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websioux

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2016, 03:06:42 pm »

So nothing changes to your NXT tokens.
Absolutely, its like quantitative easing, nothing change to your fiat $$ and it's so good for the world economy :P
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abctc

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2016, 03:08:12 pm »

NXT might be known as the coin where you, at any time can loose some of your % of tokens because other people think so.
- how is it that you loose % of NXT tokens due to IPO ?   NXT tokens still allow you to forge (to compose) Nxt blocks and gain tx commision (in NXT).  So nothing changes to your NXT tokens.
Hmmmm.. not sure if I follow you here.
Are you talking about the NXT child chain, or do you mean fNXT?
- yes, about the NXT child chain.  Because fNXT (and sidechains) is absolutely new invention, so 100% of fNXT should be IPOed.  Nobody at initial IPO (2013, 21 BTC) paid for sidechains.  And nobody lose any % of their NXT tokens during 2.0 IPO.
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Sebastien256

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2016, 03:09:43 pm »

Where is BCNext when we need him?  ::)

What do you need him for? besides, he's probably that 50m biggest account forging.

Some trustworty Nxter say that they have information saying to them that it is not BCNext account (if I remember correctly). I was never given the information tho.
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Sebastien256

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2016, 03:15:56 pm »

NXT might be known as the coin where you, at any time can loose some of your % of tokens because other people think so.
- how is it that you loose % of NXT tokens due to IPO ?   NXT tokens still allow you to forge (to compose) Nxt blocks and gain tx commision (in NXT).  So nothing changes to your NXT tokens.
Hmmmm.. not sure if I follow you here.
Are you talking about the NXT child chain, or do you mean fNXT?
- yes, about the NXT child chain.  Because fNXT (and sidechains) is absolutely new invention, so 100% of fNXT should be IPOed.  Nobody at initial IPO (2013, 21 BTC) paid for sidechains.  And nobody lose any % of their NXT tokens during 2.0 IPO.

I don't think fNXT is a completly new invention, it is the token that securing the whole platform as NXT currently is securing the platform. The token securing the platform is the one getting the fees resulting from the transaction, so it is pretty valuable. NXT token after fork will still be valuable, but it will certainly loose some value due to the fact that it securing function is removed and given away to fNXT.

So if an IPO of fNXT would happen, it would take away a value that NXT holder currently hold.
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NxtSwe

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2016, 03:44:09 pm »

NXT might be known as the coin where you, at any time can loose some of your % of tokens because other people think so.
- how is it that you loose % of NXT tokens due to IPO ?   NXT tokens still allow you to forge (to compose) Nxt blocks and gain tx commision (in NXT).  So nothing changes to your NXT tokens.
Hmmmm.. not sure if I follow you here.
Are you talking about the NXT child chain, or do you mean fNXT?
- yes, about the NXT child chain.  Because fNXT (and sidechains) is absolutely new invention, so 100% of fNXT should be IPOed.  Nobody at initial IPO (2013, 21 BTC) paid for sidechains.  And nobody lose any % of their NXT tokens during 2.0 IPO.

For the last 2 years or so I have been buying the tokens needed to create transactions on the entire NXT platform.
So in the next version those tokens will only control a tiny part of the NXT platform you say?

Wow!
If that is what will happen I will make sure to dump all my NXT asap before everyone else does.
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Damelon

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2016, 04:11:00 pm »

NXT might be known as the coin where you, at any time can loose some of your % of tokens because other people think so.
- how is it that you loose % of NXT tokens due to IPO ?   NXT tokens still allow you to forge (to compose) Nxt blocks and gain tx commision (in NXT).  So nothing changes to your NXT tokens.
Hmmmm.. not sure if I follow you here.
Are you talking about the NXT child chain, or do you mean fNXT?
- yes, about the NXT child chain.  Because fNXT (and sidechains) is absolutely new invention, so 100% of fNXT should be IPOed.  Nobody at initial IPO (2013, 21 BTC) paid for sidechains.  And nobody lose any % of their NXT tokens during 2.0 IPO.

For the last 2 years or so I have been buying the tokens needed to create transactions on the entire NXT platform.
So in the next version those tokens will only control a tiny part of the NXT platform you say?

Wow!
If that is what will happen I will make sure to dump all my NXT asap before everyone else does.

Please not that none of the above has been said by the devs in any way.
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devlux

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2016, 04:38:56 pm »

IPO is the only way to get funding while remaining independent and without jeopardizing the future of the public blockchain.

Without an IPO, NXT2.0 will still be developed. But if instead of being crowdfunded it ends up being financed by private investors, it will be those investors that decide where and how it gets deployed.

Your problem is very simple.  You need to raise funds.

But it's also very complicated.

Jean Luc, like it or lump it, you are effectively CEO of a corporation.

You have investors already, and you owe them a duty of care for their assets that have been entrusted to you.
They are the folks who own the current coin.  You need to avoid alienating and disenfranchising them.
Yet this is exactly what you are proposing.  "Either we do a split, or I'll pull a blockstream."
Do you realize that you're talking about selling their value to someone else without their permission?
That's not exactly inspiring confidence in your existing investors.

Some of them are going activist on you and if the economic majority refuses to support you then you will lose the battle.

This does not have to be adversarial though.
When a business needs to raise funds it has 3 options.
#1 Sell something, i.e. have a viable business model preferably one that is service oriented.
#2 Borrow something, take a loan from somewhere, but you need to have #1 in place before anyone in their right mind will lend.  A bond would be viable, but how are you going to pay it back?

#3 Raise capital from external investors.

#3 needs to be an absolute last resort something you try only when everything else has failed.

What you are doing is lying to yourself and everyone else.  You're saying "we don't have a #1", "We don't have a superior product that can compete in the market place". 

I call BS.   People are using Bitcoin, ETH & Bitshares everyday all of which are massively inferior. 
This corporation has a fantastic technology called NXT. 

Quit trying to chase easy money from the "dollars for coins" crowd.  A lot of investors are going to look at what you've built now and wonder why they should invest in your "New point Oh!". 
To potential investors you're not a Phoenix rising from the ashes, you appear to be a Sloth that has been sleeping all day, only to wake up and realize the tree is now devoid of leaves and now it's time to search out another tree.

Even making the offer is admitting to investors that what you have spent the last several years building wasn't a success, just a complete waste of everyone's time.

Why would the next thing you put out be any better?  Potential investors will be skittish because your current investors are being disenfranchised by this.

Speaking as an investor, why would I invest in a 2.0 when the 1.0 failed and the same people are behind it? 
What's to stop you from disenfranchising the 2.0 folks when that money runs out and you decide that a 3.0 is in order? 
It sounds harsh but these are real questions you'll face from potential investors on the endeavor. 
You'd be better off just walking away and spinning a whole new coin from scratch if you really want to do an ICO with a new coin.

But I'm here to tell you Jean Luc.  We won't let you fail if you stick with us. 
We will support you, but you need to do this properly.
You're a CEO not a dictator.  A CEO can be replaced, but it doesn't need to come to that. 

My advice is to leave the tech as it is right now.  Don't screw with it.
You've done a great job programming it, but it's time to let the code cool for a bit.

Evolution NEXT, not Revolution should be the order of business.

Create a new business who's sole revenue model is based on selling tools and services built around NXT as it is now, directly to business.

IPO that business on the NXT Asset market and ONLY ACCEPT NXT for investment.  Hell I'd buy some!

Come up with an awesome business plan built around making it easy for businesses to use NXT. 
Ask us as a community to step up with helping you on this.  I can name 5 people off the top of my head that would write an excellent business plan.
Sell consulting services, integration services, anything you want.
Except changes to NXT itself.

The company could do anything that any company right now can do, but it would have you guys who know the ins and outs of NXT best, to do the work of integration. 

But the company should not have any special privileges and it should not be allowed to collect special fees or assessments. 

This business also needs to be completely distinct from the existing development group.  The development group should be tasked solely with making incremental changes to NXT that benefit the economic majority of NXT stakeholders. 

Therefore, put in place a voting mechanism to allow the stakeholders to approve or veto any changes to core.

I discuss a system that could do this here...  https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/a-modest-proposal/msg213899/#msg213899
Essentially turning development into a community process where anyone can develop NXT and they are "Paid on Delivery".
We're working on a crowdfund right now to pay for development of it.  The first step is a white paper I'll be releasing on Friday or Saturday.
If it goes through, I highly recommend you accept it into core.

By isolating development of NXT core from the business side of "selling services built on NXT", you'll ensure a healthy ecosystem for NXT and that's all the currency needs, a healthy ecosystem. 

A use for the coin and places that accept it.  A way to interface with the outside world.
Furthermore the fact that you have clients who are using the system and who have paid you to build them things on top of it, is going to make you far, far more reluctant to change things on them and on us.

Differentiate in your mind, NXT the coin vs NXT the tech and quit threatening to pull a blockstream.  I came here to get away from all that.
Consider legitimizing my proposal about moving development to a true community process where the stakeholders have the sole right to say what NXT does and does not evolve into.  Centralized development is not a necessary evil, it's just evil.

My final thoughts...
Jean Luc, Riker and the whole NXT core dev team.  Speaking as a fellow programmer who has done this professionally for over 2 decades.  You've done an awesome job.  This product is one of the best open source projects I've seen from a coding standpoint.  It's clean, effective and just works.  The UI is tolerable but needs help. But that's par for the course in any opensource project. UI designers are artists and artists don't really ken to the kinds of abuse you and I take for granted every day.  You need to hire more UX people. 

Besides all of that though, you have an opportunity right now to raise funds to build a business that helps business use NXT.  This is the only correct path at this point, the b2b market is worth trillions and it will be a lot easier than trying to go 2.0  Keep in mind that Bitshares went 2.0 and it was an unmitigated disaster, it's doubtful you would do any better but I also don't think you could do any worse.  The only reason they are worth anything right now is the UX improved and they are spending a fortune on marketing. 

NXT is a far superior product, but is essentially unmarketed.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 05:27:17 pm by devlux »
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2016, 05:08:34 pm »

Wow, what a post devlux.

I fully agree with your critique. Fully.

Jean Luc  :'(

zuqka

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2016, 07:30:01 pm »

Speechless.....thx devlux for reviving us and I call on devs and NXT community to reflect.
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lurker10

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Re: [POLL] The IPO idea.
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2016, 07:36:11 pm »

Somebody needs to write a summary of all options with pros and cons, summaries are convenient to look at in reflection :)
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