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Latest Nxt Client 1.11.5 - NEW RELEASE: Ardor 2.0.3e TestNet IS LAUNCHED!

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Author Topic: [Ardor] Child Chain and Bundler teasers  (Read 3181 times)

Damelon

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[Ardor] Child Chain and Bundler teasers
January 08, 2017, 03:16:25 pm

Here are some screenshots of a Child chain block and the Bundler screen:





 :)
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wolffang

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Looking forward about hearing more about it :)

TheWireMaster

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Cool! Looking forward!
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RocketBunny

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give us release :)

Brangdon

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Interesting. I expected to see an option to only bundle if my node is forging. What does "Overpay" mean?
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qq2536007339

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Looks nice,I want more. ;D
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cryptAnalyzer

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Interesting. It won't hurt to learn more.

ScripterRon

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Interesting. I expected to see an option to only bundle if my node is forging. What does "Overpay" mean?
Anybody can bundle.  You must have a minimum of 1000 ARDR if you want your bundler rates to be broadcast to other nodes in the network.  Note that a child block transaction (used to bundle coins from a child chain) is on the main (FXT) chain and costs ARDR.  So if you don't forge as well as bundle, then you need some way to replenish your ARDR if you want to continue to bundle (perhaps by exchanging child coins for ARDR).

Overpay means you will pay more ARDR than the minimum required by the child blocks in your bundle.  You would do this if you wanted your child block transaction to be preferred over another child block transaction for the same child chain (each forged block contains a maximum of one child block transaction for each child chain).
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box1413

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How can we simplify this so a noob can understand?

abctc

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How can we simplify this so a noob can understand?
- no need for noob to understand bundling.
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Brangdon

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Interesting. I expected to see an option to only bundle if my node is forging.
Anybody can bundle.  You must have a minimum of 1000 ARDR if you want your bundler rates to be broadcast to other nodes in the network.  Note that a child block transaction (used to bundle coins from a child chain) is on the main (FXT) chain and costs ARDR.  So if you don't forge as well as bundle, then you need some way to replenish your ARDR if you want to continue to bundle (perhaps by exchanging child coins for ARDR).
Thanks. What I meant by that option was, if I bundle Ignis transactions if and only if I am forging the current Ardor block, then I effectively don't pay ARDOR fees (because I pay them to myself), and other bundlers don't need to send me their own child block transactions. That had seemed like an important special case for several reasons, so I had expected there to be an option for it.

(I appreciate that the bandwidth overhead of sending child block transactions around is probably quite low, if the child transactions themselves are included by reference having already been broadcast. Still, all the child block transactions except one will be wasted, since the forger can only accept one per block, and even that one is wasted if the forger is determined to bundle themselves. And since anyone with 1000 ARDR can bundle, if everyone actually does, it feels like it could add up to a lot of overhead. Hundreds of child block transactions per minute, all ignored.)

What does "Overpay" mean?

Overpay means you will pay more ARDR than the minimum required by the child blocks in your bundle.  You would do this if you wanted your child block transaction to be preferred over another child block transaction for the same child chain (each forged block contains a maximum of one child block transaction for each child chain).
I see. So a forger who is also a bundler might still accept child block transactions from other bundlers, if their overpay was high enough.

I'm just trying to get my head around the various exchange rate risks involved in forging and/or bundling. There are three options:
  • If I forge but don't bundle, I gain ARDOR.
  • If I bundle only when I forge, I gain IGNIS.
  • If I bundle when it isn't my turn to forge, I gain IGNIS but lose ARDOR.
I was thinking the last option involves having optimism about the IGNIS:ARDOR exchange rate, but now I see that the middle option does too. The first option is best if you think the value of IGNIS will fall.

(Just using IGNIS as a concrete example; I appreciate there will be other child chains.)
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ScripterRon

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Thanks. What I meant by that option was, if I bundle Ignis transactions if and only if I am forging the current Ardor block, then I effectively don't pay ARDOR fees (because I pay them to myself), and other bundlers don't need to send me their own child block transactions. That had seemed like an important special case for several reasons, so I had expected there to be an option for it.
Bundlers can be started in the same manner as forgers.  Once started, they run automatically and will attempt to bundle anything that meets their criteria.

There is also a bundle API.  You can check if you are due to forge the next block and then use the API to manually bundle transactions instead of running an automatic bundler.  But the forger also run automatically, so you can't guarantee that your transaction will be selected unless you overpay the fee, even though the forger is running on your local node.

Of course, your bundler can set its rate to undercut the competition, which would result in users using your rate when submitting child transactions.  The other bundlers would not process the transactions unless they also lower their rates to compete with you.

It will be interesting to see how this works in the real world.
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Brangdon

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Of course, your bundler can set its rate to undercut the competition, which would result in users using your rate when submitting child transactions.  The other bundlers would not process the transactions unless they also lower their rates to compete with you.
So users are told the rates of bundlers? If there are scores of bundlers do they get told all of the rates, or just the cheapest or the average? Can I advertise my rate as zero, and then not actually bundle anything, to wreck havoc on the child-chain?
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ScripterRon

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Of course, your bundler can set its rate to undercut the competition, which would result in users using your rate when submitting child transactions.  The other bundlers would not process the transactions unless they also lower their rates to compete with you.
So users are told the rates of bundlers? If there are scores of bundlers do they get told all of the rates, or just the cheapest or the average? Can I advertise my rate as zero, and then not actually bundle anything, to wreck havoc on the child-chain?
Yes, the bundler rates are broadcast and the best rates are presented to the user.  You must have 1000 ARDR in order to have your rates broadcast.  And the rates are signed by your account, so a misbehaving user can be blacklisted.

While the user is told the best rate, he is free to change it to another value (if it seems too good to be true, it probably is).
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box1413

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how many child chains can a forger bundle at the same time? Say there are 3 child chains:

BTC
LTC
ETH

And each chain makes a transaction. Does the forger bundle all 3 of these child chains, hence receiving btc, ltc, and eth while giving up ARDR? Also we have to safely assume that ARDR's price needs to be low enough to the point that its worthwhile to bundle these childchains.

In effect, this seems like a miner node that mines all coins at once. This will indeed be an interesting turnout once this goes live.

Next thing is having custodians of these altcoins to create a pegging-pool linking it into these childchains. This looks like Ardor effectively became a Sidechain platform for all of crypto... very interesting turn of events.
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