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Latest Nxt Client 1.11.12 - NEW RELEASE: Ardor 2.0.13 MAIN NET - The Ardor genesis block happened at 0:00 January 1st

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Author Topic: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation  (Read 773 times)

kermitas

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[ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 10, 2018, 09:22:04 pm

Hi,
sorry if that question was asked previously: what would happen to child chain if (for example by accident) all its bundlers will be down for - let's say - 1h? Will child chains in current state (all child chains are distributed as one Ardor node) operate normally is such situation? And later, when child chains will be kicked out from Ardor's distribution and live their own life, will they operate normally when bundling-to-Ardor will be temporary unavailable?

Thanks.

kermitas

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 10, 2018, 09:37:34 pm

Jelurida representatives - are you here?

ScripterRon

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 10, 2018, 09:49:24 pm

Hi,
sorry if that question was asked previously: what would happen to child chain if (for example by accident) all its bundlers will be down for - let's say - 1h? Will child chains in current state (all child chains are distributed as one Ardor node) operate normally is such situation? And later, when child chains will be kicked out from Ardor's distribution and live their own life, will they operate normally when bundling-to-Ardor will be temporary unavailable?

Thanks.
No child transactions for a chain will be bundled if no bundler is available.  Unconfirmed child transactions will be discarded when the expiration time is reached.

Don't understand what you mean about being kicked out from Ardor's distribution.

kermitas

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 10, 2018, 10:06:34 pm

Don't understand what you mean about being kicked out from Ardor's distribution.

Thanks for the answers.

I imagine that in near future there will be dozens of child chains. Many with custom codebases as they will perform very custom businesses. The natural, and healthy, way would be to let them live their own life, run their own nodes - this is how I see this. I would not believe in situation that on each small update to my ABC child-chain I will need to ask Jelurida to include that software into Ardor's software, prepare release and ask all node maintainers to perform an update... 

kermitas

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 10, 2018, 10:08:20 pm

No child transactions for a chain will be bundled if no bundler is available.  Unconfirmed child transactions will be discarded when the expiration time is reached.

So you stated that no child-chain block will be added (to child-chain) if there will be no confirmation form bundler that information was successfully published to parent-chain (the Ardor) - am I right?

neofelis

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 10, 2018, 11:54:39 pm

No child transactions for a chain will be bundled if no bundler is available.  Unconfirmed child transactions will be discarded when the expiration time is reached.

So you stated that no child-chain block will be added (to child-chain) if there will be no confirmation form bundler that information was successfully published to parent-chain (the Ardor) - am I right?

That is right.  If it's not bundled, it will expire and not exist.  Thats why it's a good idea to keep a few Ardor handy so you can run your own bundler just in case nobody else is bundling.  Plus, you get to keep the child chain transaction fees.  Save you some money.

ScripterRon

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 11, 2018, 01:13:57 am

Don't understand what you mean about being kicked out from Ardor's distribution.

Thanks for the answers.

I imagine that in near future there will be dozens of child chains. Many with custom codebases as they will perform very custom businesses. The natural, and healthy, way would be to let them live their own life, run their own nodes - this is how I see this. I would not believe in situation that on each small update to my ABC child-chain I will need to ask Jelurida to include that software into Ardor's software, prepare release and ask all node maintainers to perform an update...
I expect there will be custom versions of the Ardor software just as there are custom versions of the Nxt software.  They will each have their own blockchain.

ScripterRon

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 11, 2018, 01:16:59 am

No child transactions for a chain will be bundled if no bundler is available.  Unconfirmed child transactions will be discarded when the expiration time is reached.

So you stated that no child-chain block will be added (to child-chain) if there will be no confirmation form bundler that information was successfully published to parent-chain (the Ardor) - am I right?
No.  The child block transactions are added to the ARDR chain by the bundler.  Each child block transaction records one or more child transactions that were processed by the bundler.  A child transaction is confirmed if it has been included in a child block transaction.  No additional information is added to the child chain when a child transaction is confirmed.

kermitas

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 11, 2018, 11:20:41 am

No.  The child block transactions are added to the ARDR chain by the bundler.  Each child block transaction records one or more child transactions that were processed by the bundler.  A child transaction is confirmed if it has been included in a child block transaction.  No additional information is added to the child chain when a child transaction is confirmed.

We two blockchains and each one is growing by adding new blocks - right? I asked if childchain would grow if - for accident - all bundlers will be stopped (so nothing will be published to parent-Ardor-chain).

(Of course I know what neofelis responded [thanks for that!] but just wanted to clear if my understanding is correct and inline with your.)

By reading sentence like The child block transactions are added to the ARDR chain by the bundler. many can be confused and think that there is nothing like separate, healthy living blockchain (called a child-chain) and instead of that all IGNIS/AURD/.../.../ data are added directly to Ardor. And that means that there no architectural difference between Ardor and Ethereum (where CryptoKitties and doens of ICOs can successfully block ordinary ETH transfers).

ScripterRon

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 11, 2018, 01:46:42 pm

No.  The child block transactions are added to the ARDR chain by the bundler.  Each child block transaction records one or more child transactions that were processed by the bundler.  A child transaction is confirmed if it has been included in a child block transaction.  No additional information is added to the child chain when a child transaction is confirmed.

We two blockchains and each one is growing by adding new blocks - right? I asked if childchain would grow if - for accident - all bundlers will be stopped (so nothing will be published to parent-Ardor-chain).

(Of course I know what neofelis responded [thanks for that!] but just wanted to clear if my understanding is correct and inline with your.)

By reading sentence like The child block transactions are added to the ARDR chain by the bundler. many can be confused and think that there is nothing like separate, healthy living blockchain (called a child-chain) and instead of that all IGNIS/AURD/.../.../ data are added directly to Ardor. And that means that there no architectural difference between Ardor and Ethereum (where CryptoKitties and doens of ICOs can successfully block ordinary ETH transfers).
A child block transaction on the ARDR chain contains just the transaction identifiers.  The actual transaction data is in the child chain.  Once pruning is implemented, the transaction data can be pruned and replaced by a checkpoint.

petko

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 11, 2018, 05:36:30 pm

I imagine that in near future there will be dozens of child chains. Many with custom codebases as they will perform very custom businesses. The natural, and healthy, way would be to let them live their own life, run their own nodes - this is how I see this. I would not believe in situation that on each small update to my ABC child-chain I will need to ask Jelurida to include that software into Ardor's software, prepare release and ask all node maintainers to perform an update...

Ardor child chains are not about flexibility, but about scalability. You cannot have custom code for a child chain which is not executed by the main chain forgers

Brangdon

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 11, 2018, 07:54:14 pm

No.  The child block transactions are added to the ARDR chain by the bundler.  Each child block transaction records one or more child transactions that were processed by the bundler.  A child transaction is confirmed if it has been included in a child block transaction.  No additional information is added to the child chain when a child transaction is confirmed.

We two blockchains and each one is growing by adding new blocks - right? I asked if childchain would grow if - for accident - all bundlers will be stopped (so nothing will be published to parent-Ardor-chain).

(Of course I know what neofelis responded [thanks for that!] but just wanted to clear if my understanding is correct and inline with your.)

By reading sentence like The child block transactions are added to the ARDR chain by the bundler. many can be confused and think that there is nothing like separate, healthy living blockchain (called a child-chain) and instead of that all IGNIS/AURD/.../.../ data are added directly to Ardor. And that means that there no architectural difference between Ardor and Ethereum (where CryptoKitties and doens of ICOs can successfully block ordinary ETH transfers).
A child block transaction on the ARDR chain contains just the transaction identifiers.  The actual transaction data is in the child chain.  Once pruning is implemented, the transaction data can be pruned and replaced by a checkpoint.
Is that right? I didn't think child-chains actually existed at all as their own data structure. I thought all their confirmed transactions were in child block transactions on the Ardor chain, and no-where else.

ScripterRon

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 11, 2018, 10:30:23 pm

A child block transaction on the ARDR chain contains just the transaction identifiers.  The actual transaction data is in the child chain.  Once pruning is implemented, the transaction data can be pruned and replaced by a checkpoint.
Is that right? I didn't think child-chains actually existed at all as their own data structure. I thought all their confirmed transactions were in child block transactions on the Ardor chain, and no-where else.
You can check this by looking at a child block transaction on the ARDR chain.

For example, block 5309780213787095949 contains one transaction, 2954005031930060987.  This is a child chain block transaction and contains a single transaction identifier 15532845600527481446.  This is an ordinary payment transaction on the IGNIS chain.  The child chain block transaction contains just a list of transaction identifiers.  You need to look up the child transaction on the IGNIS chain to get the details.

At the database level, each child chain has its own set of tables.  So when a chain is pruned, it means the associated database tables are pruned.

kermitas

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 11, 2018, 11:53:51 pm

You cannot have custom code for a child chain which is not executed by the main chain forgers

How then Jelurida would prefer that one would write decentralized gateway to other blockchain?

Let's say one would like to connect EOS (https://eos.io/) with Ardor-world by creating custom child-chain AEOS. How to achieve that?

petko

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 12, 2018, 10:53:12 am

You cannot have custom code for a child chain which is not executed by the main chain forgers

How then Jelurida would prefer that one would write decentralized gateway to other blockchain?

Let's say one would like to connect EOS (https://eos.io/) with Ardor-world by creating custom child-chain AEOS. How to achieve that?

If you mean a gateway similar to the AEUR chain, yes it is possible, but it will not be decentralized. The AEUR pegged child chain is centralized - a company will hold a fiat EUR reserve equal to the AEUR coins in circulation. Similarly to Tether.

There is an idea about atomic swaps between blockchains which implements a decentralized exchange between the blockchain tokens. I.e. the atomic swaps connect two blockchains in a decentralized way. Up to my knowledge there is nothing working so far. I think Komodo are most advanced with this idea.

But atomic swaps don't have much to do with child chains - a custom child chain is not necessary for that and does not help at all. What is necessary is that each of the blockchains supports a way to transfer funds conditionally if a secret is revealed, or return the funds to the original owner if the secret is not revealed in a previously negotiated period. In Ardor and NXT this can be achieved with a phased transaction with by-hash voting.

kermitas

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Re: [ARDOR] all bundlers down situation
January 15, 2018, 08:15:54 pm

Thank you for the answer.

I moved my question to dedicated thread [ARDOR] CHILD_CHAIN <-> EOS decentralized gateway, https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/(ardor)-child-chain-lt-gt-eos-decentralized-gateway/.
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