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Author Topic: Nxt 2.0 design  (Read 210698 times)

Vyazhan

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #320 on: February 12, 2016, 01:07:03 pm »

I can't really dig through all of this, but just from a feeling, I feel it's gonna get a lot of people even more disinterested in NXT, as it's always complicated compared to many other cryptos and introducing this will remove more casual NXT users for sure :)

my 2 cts...
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #321 on: February 12, 2016, 01:13:50 pm »

From the moment their are no more offers, offering fNXT for the childchain currency, it is no longer possible to forge and excecute transactions on the childchain.
The fee in the childchain would also be floating depending on the latest fNXT offer.
This is intentional and I don't see it as a disadvantage. If a child chain wants to run on the Nxt platform, it must pay market rate fees. If the tokens of that child chain have no value, i.e. no one is willing to exchange fNXT for them, the child chain should stop growing.
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Scaling by using snapshots causes all transaction history to be unsaved.
Even though nodes could still have that data, they have no incentive to share that date.
We can think about adding incentive, if needed, when it becomes needed.
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This would mean that I open my nxt account and I can't see my previous transactions, messages, trades, etc.
Yes, if you have been offline for more than the default pruning period. But then your node will catch up from archival nodes for that blockchain, as it does now with prunable data.
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I think scaling would be more feacable by lowering the duplicity of all this data, not by deleting it all together, as that results in the loss of availability of all that data.
Where do you see duplicity? Please be specific.

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No account control for the token that needs security the most, as it controls the security of all childchains?
Account control provides, well, control. Not security.

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The initial cost of creating a child chain should be very high, to protect against abuse.
Unfortunatly that will result into low usage as well.
And that's fine, we don't want anyone and their brother creating a child chain just to see how it works and then abandoning it. To create a child chain, you must be an established business and the token you are going to use for your child chain must have market value. If not, use the Monetary System.
But as I said, at first creating child chains and changing their properties will be a manual process, in which case if there is any fee it would be to cover the development efforts for it. Until the system is working smoothly enough to think about automating it.
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SkyNxt

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #322 on: February 12, 2016, 01:21:54 pm »

Another question, will NXT 2.0 enable developers to create applications/games like decentralized toss, or execute arbitrary code on blockchain? Currently, I don't see a way to do simple game like decentralized toss on NXT
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #323 on: February 12, 2016, 01:22:10 pm »

I can't really dig through all of this, but just from a feeling, I feel it's gonna get a lot of people even more disinterested in NXT, as it's always complicated compared to many other cryptos and introducing this will remove more casual NXT users for sure :)
The casual user will hardly see any difference. When you download and start the NRS client, you will see the NXT child chain the way you see the current blockchain now, and all transactions will happen on that NXT child chain. The end user will not even be aware that there is a forging chain, unless he becomes interested in how to forge.

How exactly the other child chains will be accessible, which of them if any will be possible to switch to from the default NRS client, this is all a matter of UI. Some child chain creators may want custom clients, with which only their child chain is visible. For commonly used child chains, for example if SuperBTC becomes such a child chain, there may be a way to switch to it from the default client. Or even do transactions on another child chain without the user realizing it, for example if placing an asset ask order and the user wants to place it in SuperBTC, the client submits the transaction on that child chain without the user having to be aware of how it works. How it is presented in the UI is a whole different story, it does not need to reflect how the server part works.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #324 on: February 12, 2016, 01:22:59 pm »

Another question, will NXT 2.0 enable developers to create applications/games like decentralized toss, or execute arbitrary code on blockchain? Currently, I don't see a way to do simple game like decentralized toss on NXT
No. The scope of 2.0 is already ambitious enough.
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SkyNxt

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #325 on: February 12, 2016, 01:31:52 pm »

Another question, will NXT 2.0 enable developers to create applications/games like decentralized toss, or execute arbitrary code on blockchain? Currently, I don't see a way to do simple game like decentralized toss on NXT
No. The scope of 2.0 is already ambitious enough.
I am more interested in what's there in the plate for developers who are interested to implement dApps on NXT
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TheCoinWizard

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #326 on: February 12, 2016, 01:51:27 pm »

From the moment their are no more offers, offering fNXT for the childchain currency, it is no longer possible to forge and excecute transactions on the childchain.
The fee in the childchain would also be floating depending on the latest fNXT offer.
This is intentional and I don't see it as a disadvantage. If a child chain wants to run on the Nxt platform, it must pay market rate fees. If the tokens of that child chain have no value, i.e. no one is willing to exchange fNXT for them, the child chain should stop growing.
I understand this is intentional and required from an economic perspective in your design. One flaw for nxt is that the nxt blockchain keeps getting bloated with death childchains snapshots while not getting rewarded for keeping this snapshot alive.
Quote
Quote
Scaling by using snapshots causes all transaction history to be unsaved.
Even though nodes could still have that data, they have no incentive to share that date.
We can think about adding incentive, if needed, when it becomes needed.
The current way of working, being complete transaction blockchains, already solved that incentive problem. Taking the solution away in order to scale better is not a good scaling solution
Quote
Quote
This would mean that I open my nxt account and I can't see my previous transactions, messages, trades, etc.
Yes, if you have been offline for more than the default pruning period. But then your node will catch up from archival nodes for that blockchain, as it does now with prunable data.
Quote
I think scaling would be more feasible by lowering the duplicity of all this data, not by deleting it all together, as that results in the loss of availability of all that data.
Where do you see duplicity? Please be specific.
Duplicity being that every nxt node has a copy of every childchain, or in your case only snapshot.
It is better to not have every nxt node/forger having to process every childchain and keep every childchain.
Someone trying out a childchain doesn't need as much copies of its childblockchain as nxt has (archival) nodes. This duplicity all costs money.
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No account control for the token that needs security the most, as it controls the security of all childchains?
Account control provides, well, control. Not security.

Quote
The initial cost of creating a child chain should be very high, to protect against abuse.
Unfortunatly that will result into low usage as well.
And that's fine, we don't want anyone and their brother creating a child chain just to see how it works and then abandoning it. To create a child chain, you must be an established business and the token you are going to use for your child chain must have market value. If not, use the Monetary System.
But as I said, at first creating child chains and changing their properties will be a manual process, in which case if there is any fee it would be to cover the development efforts for it. Until the system is working smoothly enough to think about automating it.
I think it would be better if that would be possible that everyone can just try to create his coin. Test it around, notice that their coin is only being supported by the last 2 nxt nodes for the last 200 blocks and realise they need to start giving value to their coins if they want it to survive it to survive longer time they create one. This all without any nxt blockchain bloat.

Just like in my proposal.
https://nxtforum.org/core-development-discussion/aternate-nxt-2-0-design/

I would love to explain this proposal to you verbally, if you are open to it.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 01:58:13 pm by TheCoinWizard »
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #327 on: February 12, 2016, 02:06:39 pm »

I'm not sure if the following works, and if so, how. Perhaps a few people could comment.

You have a parent chain that does all the forging. Its balance isn't created 1:1 or any other way; it simply reflects what's going on in the NXT chain, like a kind of shadow balance. No split or dilution of any kind. This shadow NXT (sNXT) forges and provides security for the NXT chain and any others that are added. Actual functionality on the sNXT chain may be low since its job is just to secure everything else.

This leaves questions like how cross-currency fees are collected and distributed, but that is something that needs doing anyway.
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durerus

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #328 on: February 12, 2016, 02:10:12 pm »

Will I sign my child chain transactions and main chain transactions with the same private key? Can I use one and the same account for signing txs on all sorts of chains?

If an account has created and signed a ChildChain tx but not yet any main chain txs and if that account holds no fNXT, will that account's pubkey appear in the main chain only as attachement (as part of the snapshot and/or the not yet pruned tx history)?

I think the logical answer to these questions is YES. But I don't feel completely certain about that.

People in a German thread asked me whether separate clients for child chains are necessary. I believe, all sorts of lite clients specified for easy child chain use are possible, but it is still one whole blockchain and one system of privkey-pubkey-pairs for all chains, so no separate clients are necessary, right?

Hope these questions make any sense. Still tryin to wrap my head around 2.0.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #329 on: February 12, 2016, 02:13:14 pm »

I understand this is intentional and required from an economic perspective in your design. One flaw for nxt is that the nxt blockchain keeps getting bloated with death childchains snapshots while not getting rewarded for keeping this snapshot alive.
The cost of keeping that state has already been paid by transaction fees for that child chain, because the larger the state, the more transactions have been processed and fees paid. Having to keep the final state of a dead chain, expressed as accounts balances, is much less than having to keep all transactions that led to this state. And if we really becomes a problem, we could think about defining some conditions under which such state can be dropped and the child chain deleted for good. No need to plan for this now.
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The current way of working, being complete transaction blockchains, already solved that incentive problem. Taking the solution away in order to scale better is not a good scaling solution
Scalability is way more important than this hypothetical problem.

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Duplicity being that every nxt node has a copy of every childchain, or in your case only snapshot.
It is better to not have every nxt node/forger having to process every childchain and keep every childchain.
Someone trying out a childchain doesn't need as much copies of its childblockchain as nxt has (archival) nodes. This duplicity all costs money.
It is not possible to establish consensus without every node having the full current state of all chains. Your proposal contains a desire to achieve that, but I don't see an explanation how it could be achieved.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #330 on: February 12, 2016, 02:20:39 pm »

Will I sign my child chain transactions and main chain transactions with the same private key? Can I use one and the same account for signing txs on all sorts of chains?

If an account has created and signed a ChildChain tx but not yet any main chain txs and if that account holds no fNXT, will that account's pubkey appear in the main chain only as attachement (as part of the snapshot and/or the not yet pruned tx history)?

I think the logical answer to these questions is YES. But I don't feel completely certain about that.
Yes, the public_key table which defines which account numbers have been reserved and with what public keys, will be global and shared by all chains. This table will have to be a part of the state that a new node must download, i.e. the snapshot.

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People in a German thread asked me whether separate clients for child chains are necessary. I believe, all sorts of lite clients specified for easy child chain use are possible, but it is still one whole blockchain and one system of privkey-pubkey-pairs for all chains, so no separate clients are necessary, right?
It is indeed one whole system, the server code will be the same. The UI may be configurable which child chain to show by default, and lite clients giving access to only a specific child chain can be developed. But every node will run the same java code, possibly configured differently to prune or not different child chains.
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petko

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #331 on: February 12, 2016, 02:38:03 pm »

I started a new thread about the pegged tokens opportunity - https://nxtforum.org/core-development-discussion/nxt-2-0-child-chain-tokens-pegged-to-fnxt/

(Since I don't see anyone replaying to my post - not that I read all 14 pages since then)

I think it is worth to be discussed first instead of arguing about the fNXT/nNXT distribution
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petko

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #332 on: February 12, 2016, 03:00:42 pm »

How is NXT 2.0 different from mini blockchain cryptonite.info apart from NXT would have POS and child chains?
Yes, a child chains in Nxt 2.0 is something like the cryptonite chain, while fNXT is the POW. Ethereum is a more popular adopter of this approach
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petko

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #333 on: February 12, 2016, 03:17:42 pm »

i dont see anyone panicking, people are just voicing concerns. i don't know why you push those into the panic corner immediately.

im starting to like the ideas more and more. however i think i asked a legitimate question in my previous post, which has not been adressed by anyone. so again: it has been talked about full blocks. solving bloat alone doesn't solve scalability. given that this is all about solving scalability, i would like to hear ideas on how to solve TPS.
i think it makes sense to talk about it now, rather than to say lets solve it later. this is all about a vision isn't it?

Currently the TPS is limited mostly because of the blockchain bloat. Apart from the TPS limit, we have another limit - the minimal fees - again aiming to handle the blockchain bloat.

And speaking about the future, I think we can build a sub-sub-chain that uses a child chain stake in its Proof-of-stake
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peddycb

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #334 on: February 12, 2016, 03:23:35 pm »

NXT and (f)NXT  you take drugs
this idea is Fuck...
should this happen I'll deduct my money by nxt


 >:(
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lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #335 on: February 12, 2016, 03:28:49 pm »

NXT and (f)NXT  you take drugs
this idea is Fuck...
should this happen I'll deduct my money by nxt


 >:(

You can stay on the ossified NXT 1.x fork, it'll still work :)
Better yet, wait for the hard fork, sell your NXT 2.0 coins exchange them to NXT 1.x, and you will have double NXT 1.x coins, profit!
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 03:31:29 pm by lurker10 »
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sadface

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #336 on: February 12, 2016, 04:43:28 pm »

i dont see anyone panicking, people are just voicing concerns. i don't know why you push those into the panic corner immediately.

im starting to like the ideas more and more. however i think i asked a legitimate question in my previous post, which has not been adressed by anyone. so again: it has been talked about full blocks. solving bloat alone doesn't solve scalability. given that this is all about solving scalability, i would like to hear ideas on how to solve TPS.
i think it makes sense to talk about it now, rather than to say lets solve it later. this is all about a vision isn't it?

Currently the TPS is limited mostly because of the blockchain bloat. Apart from the TPS limit, we have another limit - the minimal fees - again aiming to handle the blockchain bloat.

And speaking about the future, I think we can build a sub-sub-chain that uses a child chain stake in its Proof-of-stake

how is tps limited by bloat? what does pruning do for tps? what i read from your post is solving tps will be aproached when and if it becomes a problem.

the last sentence i don't fully understand.
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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #337 on: February 12, 2016, 05:38:38 pm »

how is tps limited by bloat? what does pruning do for tps?

Currently : increasing Transactions per seconds increases blockchain size. To limit the growing speed you have to prune regularly.
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #338 on: February 12, 2016, 06:17:51 pm »

I have a straight question: is it possible to have all sidechain stuff without these fNXT and other NXT stuff?
No, it is not.
This is wrong. It is possible to have all sidechain stuff without splitting to NXT and fNXT.
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petko

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #339 on: February 12, 2016, 06:28:23 pm »

how is tps limited by bloat? what does pruning do for tps? what i read from your post is solving tps will be aproached when and if it becomes a problem.

the last sentence i don't fully understand.

tps limitted because of the bloat. I mean that the reason for the limit is the bloat. If we solve the bloat, we could increase the limit and reduce the minimal fees.

the last sentence: i'll explain later
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