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Nxter

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #160 on: February 10, 2016, 09:06:50 am »

I like this idea of nxt 2.0 very much. Congrats to the devs for these ideas.


-To the folks that say: this will kill nxt I say:

Nxt will become the most scalable worldwide crypto out there, “A true financial platform” I just invented the perfect slogan for 2.0   ;)


-To the folks that say: assets will be dumped for Forgies (fNXT) I say:

This argument is the same than saying: “people will dump BTC for NXT before Forgies are distributed!” 
If you think that Forgies are more valuable than some of your assets just sell them. Free market will kick in and assets will come back to normal original prices afterwards.
Or a solution to this is just issue and distribute fNXT as an asset ASAP to avoid asset dumping and let’s trade it while 2.0 is being developed.


-To the folks that say: this will lower the value of your NXT

Remember that you are getting free Forgies for the value of your NXT today. Some day this Forgies could be more valuable


-To the folks that say: NXT will get a lot of childchains competition I say:

Since when is this bad? Remember that all this competition of chilchains is going to happen all under our nxt 2.0 “A true financial platform”. And at the end there will be a true beneficiary of all this competition: the platform itself and fNXT (which you are getting for free today with your nowadays NXT).
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abctc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #161 on: February 10, 2016, 09:22:51 am »

- The speed of validation don't grow. The tx/second ratio of Nxt will not change.
...
I don't read all the posts, if some answer are already here could you quote them for me, thanks.
-
... We can think about reducing the main chain block times in order to allow for some child chains to have more frequent blocks.
- I think it's not a bad idea to read at least JLP's posts.
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #162 on: February 10, 2016, 09:31:58 am »

Imagine a fantastic new asset is being launched. Or a very promising new feature to Nxt's core (AE, shuffling etc).
Money pours into NXT (the currency) from everywhere: BTC, assets, alts, fiat. Everything goes down a little bit as people secure a stake in NXT. A parallel is Ethereum sucking the oxygen out of alts and BTC back in Summer 2014.
Is this really so different?
The good news in this case is that the proposed changes - nothing is set in stone here as I understand it - have been telegraphed well in advance. No one should lose out if they like the idea. There is plenty of time to buy NXT, sell assets, whatever you want, before the fork.
I just don't see how this is so different to any other crypto or asset launch where investors' money flows into something they like from elements they deem less immediately profitable.
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HCLivess

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #163 on: February 10, 2016, 09:40:19 am »

Shall we get a sidechain with contract programming?
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vytasz7

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #164 on: February 10, 2016, 09:45:38 am »

I have a compromiss solution for you guys.
Let's have an experiment with sidechains and all related stuff but do it on the main NXT blockchain without splitting it. We will have not so perfect prunning but everything else are only advantages:
- No chance to ruin the NXT economic system
- No problems with asset holder
- No chance to lower the network security with crashing fNXT price
- No need to create new illiquid market for new fNXT currency
- We will be able to test new setup without major changes in code and infrastructure.

Great safer idea
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OutSL

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #165 on: February 10, 2016, 09:54:49 am »

Hello World  :D
can you please add this sentence at the end of all your preceding comments, just to avoid people think that is a suicide  ;D

"This discussion is purely theoretical and this design and concept can be or not be implemented, don't panic, we are just talking ..."

Thank you all and @++
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 10:13:25 am by OutSL »
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Nxter

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #166 on: February 10, 2016, 10:16:19 am »

I have a compromiss solution for you guys.
Let's have an experiment with sidechains and all related stuff but do it on the main NXT blockchain without splitting it. We will have not so perfect prunning but everything else are only advantages:
- No chance to ruin the NXT economic system
- No problems with asset holder
- No chance to lower the network security with crashing fNXT price
- No need to create new illiquid market for new fNXT currency
- We will be able to test new setup without major changes in code and infrastructure.

Great safer idea


But the biggest advantage of nxt2.0 as described by the devs is the light blockchain..

To put this into numbers. Can some dev estimate what would be the size of nxt 2.0 blockchain compared to 1.0 today?
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sadface

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #167 on: February 10, 2016, 10:19:23 am »

i dont see anyone panicking, people are just voicing concerns. i don't know why you push those into the panic corner immediately.

im starting to like the ideas more and more. however i think i asked a legitimate question in my previous post, which has not been adressed by anyone. so again: it has been talked about full blocks. solving bloat alone doesn't solve scalability. given that this is all about solving scalability, i would like to hear ideas on how to solve TPS.
i think it makes sense to talk about it now, rather than to say lets solve it later. this is all about a vision isn't it?
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OutSL

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #168 on: February 10, 2016, 10:36:42 am »

Hi  :D
i dont see anyone panicking, people are just voicing concerns. i don't know why you push those into the panic corner immediately.

im starting to like the ideas more and more. however i think i asked a legitimate question in my previous post, which has not been adressed by anyone. so again: it has been talked about full blocks. solving bloat alone doesn't solve scalability. given that this is all about solving scalability, i would like to hear ideas on how to solve TPS.
i think it makes sense to talk about it now, rather than to say lets solve it later. this is all about a vision isn't it?
i agree with you, and i find this idea and concept very interesting! and may lead to to other nice things like an centralized crypto-currency managment tool... by implementing the JSON-RPC in a way that you can controle a bitcoin & Co nodes from the NXT interface... like the shapeshift but in full remote controle... the sidechains can store the datas in relations to this coins... eg; per coin sidechain... you know better than me this things

for the panic, if only you take a look around how much projects cadavers left behind the last code change... and was not big change comparing to the 2.0... i read this panic in the exchanges graphs and not in words...

Quote
To put this into numbers. Can some dev estimate what would be the size of nxt 2.0 blockchain compared to 1.0 today?
the number is = NXT BC + fNXT BC + (n x sidechain) and is > 1.0

thank you all , i follow this because is nice to see the power of the speculation affecting the markets in real conditions  ;D
@++
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yiiy

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #169 on: February 10, 2016, 10:42:38 am »

The problem (block data expansion, transaction speed limit, the focus is the first article); recommendations
First, improved incentives mechanism, mining awarded to all blocks of storage nodes, regardless of the number of its holdings of NXT, average distribution, in order to expand the number of users, believe that holding users welcomed the increase in the number of users.
Second, the ordinary client to retain the most recent period of block data.
Third, the expansion of the number of users need to improve: reduce the cost of the industry to a competitive level, the community to provide an example of voting and other functions.
Fourth, all nodes in the system as a whole, ten copies can be backed up, you do not need to keep a copy of each node.
Immature ideas for reference only.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #170 on: February 10, 2016, 11:24:34 am »

Global asset is interesting, but how will this be implemented? The main chain does not have the transaction types concerning asset, assets will have to be created on a specific child chain. Does cross child chain transaction help? Will the account itself be global?
The transaction that creates an asset will have to belong to a specific child chain, and this chain will become the default for transactions with this asset that do not have a value in native chain tokens. For example, asset transfer, or asset share deletion. Other transactions that have a meaning only in the context of some chain token will belong to the child chain of this token even if they refer to asset created on another chain, e.g. ask and bid orders, dividend payments.

It is the transactions that get pruned, plus all derived objects from chains that you don't care about and that no longer are needed for validation of future transactions. For example, trades executed on another chain. We could prune trades even now as nothing depends on them, but the main benefit will come from being able to prune the transactions. Because even though we can delete past ask and bid orders that have been filled, we can't delete the transactions that created them. And each node downloading the blockchain must re-live the creation, matching, and deletion of those orders again. We will bypass that by just being able to download the latest state of account and asset balances and open orders.

Accounts will also need to be global. Any account will be able to have fNXT balance, but will not need to. Things like account properties, I don't know yet.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #171 on: February 10, 2016, 11:26:25 am »

I have a compromiss solution for you guys.
Let's have an experiment with sidechains and all related stuff but do it on the main NXT blockchain without splitting it. We will have not so perfect prunning but everything else are only advantages:
- No chance to ruin the NXT economic system
- No problems with asset holder
- No chance to lower the network security with crashing fNXT price
- No need to create new illiquid market for new fNXT currency
- We will be able to test new setup without major changes in code and infrastructure.
So you expect me to spend one year on an experiment that may prove nothing, and if successful will take another year of rewriting the code to get it right?

If you can do it in less than an year, go ahead.

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Ludom

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #172 on: February 10, 2016, 11:38:11 am »

- The speed of validation don't grow. The tx/second ratio of Nxt will not change.
...
I don't read all the posts, if some answer are already here could you quote them for me, thanks.
-
... We can think about reducing the main chain block times in order to allow for some child chains to have more frequent blocks.
- I think it's not a bad idea to read at least JLP's posts.

Yes, I see it but is that the consequence of the new design of Nxt 2.0 ? We already can reduce the blockchain times if we want, no?

Firstly when I thought that the child chain idea was (but I was false):
- Each child chains are Nxt clones but with their OWN blockchain (right now, we have only the mother blockchain).
- Each child chains are secured by their own nodes but one node can secure more than one childchain (and the mother chain also). They stock the blockchain of each child they want.
- Forging power of the childchains is in his own token (like Nxt right now) and the fees are in this same token.

The role of the motherchain can be different:
- The motherchain is a middle man between the childchains.
- If you want to exchange a currency of a childchain to an other, you have to create a transaction on the motherchain. Fees are paid with the motherchain tokens.
- The motherchain as only to care about the balance of the fNXT and the childchain official tokens. They don't have to validate the other: messaging, assets balance, marketplace, voting and all this useful features.

To validate a transaction between two childchain, the forger should have the blockchain of both (to know the balance of the tokens).

In this configuration, the Forgers can forge in the same time :
- On the motherchain (obligation)
- On the childchains if they want and owns the right tokens

Technically I don't know if it's possible (I think that is what jl777 try to do with superNET) but I see a lot of advantages:
- You have the same advantages as the original Dev's proposition.
- Some chains can choose to don't prune his data, but the forgers can choose if they want to take care of it or not.
- A big part of the validation of the transaction of the childchain are independant. It grows radically the tx/second. The same node don't care of the same blockchains.

Forging become a business, because you have to wait the right forger to validate your transactions between blocks. The transaction between childchains are only possible if a forger take care of the good pair of token. The childchain "owners" have to motivate the forgers to download your blockchain.
Or if you want to be sure to make transaction between your blockchain and other childchain, you can buy fNXT and become a forger.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #173 on: February 10, 2016, 11:55:02 am »

What you are describing is a system of Nxt clones, that have no incentive to have anything to do with each other. Instead of depending on such artificially imposed need to depend on the mother chain for transactions between themselves (and having to download the other chain fully for that), they would either use centralized exchanges, or phasing with pay on secret reveal for cross-chain transactions. They would have no ability to be pruned, and must keep forging and running many nodes and accounts for security. And they have a lot of incentive to become incompatible with each other in order to add custom transaction types and features they need, without having to share this code with the others.
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OutSL

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #174 on: February 10, 2016, 12:01:12 pm »

Hi again  :D
just an historical record for the panic room  ;D

HD: http://i64.tinypic.com/308if0z.png

@JLP
please let us know about your plans for the other parts of the system... there is not only the forging and the child chains that will be optimized... no?
what about the marketplace? we will have something like ebay  ;D ?
and the AE? will have a front page with some professional (free) graphs...?
a bit of good news in this confusion will be nice  :D

Thank you all and @++
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #175 on: February 10, 2016, 12:08:05 pm »

^^^ come on, that's a little simplistic. What about the way the crazy ETH spike is pulling money out of alts and BTC today, or just random variance and the innately unpredictable nature of low-volume crypto markets? Today's dump isn't about Nxt 2.0.
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #176 on: February 10, 2016, 12:19:41 pm »

I have a compromiss solution for you guys.
Let's have an experiment with sidechains and all related stuff but do it on the main NXT blockchain without splitting it. We will have not so perfect prunning but everything else are only advantages:
- No chance to ruin the NXT economic system
- No problems with asset holder
- No chance to lower the network security with crashing fNXT price
- No need to create new illiquid market for new fNXT currency
- We will be able to test new setup without major changes in code and infrastructure.
So you expect me to spend one year on an experiment that may prove nothing, and if successful will take another year of rewriting the code to get it right?

If you can do it in less than an year, go ahead.
Could you compare the "right" solution and my proposal? Let's see some number. How do you estimate the excessive disk usage or bandwith usage for "wrong" soultion compared to "right"?

This "wrong" solution has numerous advantages over the "right" solution so let's check what the "right" solution can give to the nexters.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #177 on: February 10, 2016, 12:25:22 pm »

I don't see any advantages in your solution, but as I said you are welcome to implement it yourself.
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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #178 on: February 10, 2016, 12:51:25 pm »

@JLP
What's the real purpose to such changes,because of current NXT one Chain can not attract business/applications  or other reasons?
Thanks.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #179 on: February 10, 2016, 01:19:00 pm »

With the current transaction volume, the ability to attract other businesses to use Nxt as a platform is the main value proposition of 2.0. The scalability is important for the future.

Currently if a business wants a blockchain based on Nxt software, but not using NXT token and not dependent on the NXT economy, the only thing we can offer them is a clone. But there is no way to make this clone linked to the Nxt ecosystem and bring more value to NXT, other than the marketing and advertising effect.

If they can instead use a child chain, they get all Nxt features (with the ability to turn off some), security that does not depend on them running their own nodes and forgers, and scalability via pruning.

An overlooked benefit is also that they get maintenance, security bugfixes, new features and all updates for free, because all child chains share the same code. If the alternative is to create a standalone clone, it will start diverging and lagging behind from the main Nxt codebase, and the more different it becomes, the more work it will be to keep it up to date.

For those who do want a private, not visible to others blockchain, the solution would still be to create a clone. But they still get the benefit of a more scalable architecture, even though they will need to run their own nodes and do forging, on their private network.
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