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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #760 on: February 21, 2016, 10:47:01 am »

I asked for the possibility to vote on hard coded fNXT minimum fee with the option of a) your proposed fee and b) 0.5x, c) 2x options to be decided by the community or for explanation why 0.5x or 2x are insecure while 1x is secure. If there is no good explanation with precise calculations, it makes it an arbitrary decision on your part which makes it safe to assume that 0.5x and 2x should also be relatively secure, they are not that far from 1x, not an order of decimal magnitude.
If you meant compromises about the specific fee values, of course, the possible options should be explained and justified, and voting done if there is disagreement. The base fee, around which other fees are calculated, is something that forgers should vote on (by fNXT balance). The relative ratio of fees on fNXT chain vs fees on prunable chains is something we would need to come up with a way to estimate, when I said 100x it was a ballpark number based on assuming that average number of transactions in a childchain block that a single fNXT chain transaction would be equivalent to. It would probably need to be somewhere between 10x-100x. But a 1x is not possible, and there were voices in this thread that they want transactions on the forging chain to be cheap, which means people just don't get the purpose of it. This is why I reserve the right to say sorry, but a 1x ratio is not possible even if users vote for it, the system can't work in this mode. Also, fees on the prunable chains can be lowered, so we may be looking at 0.1 fNXT fee there and 10 fNXT on forging chain, or even 0.01 vs 1.0, and put like that a 100x ratio is not unreasonable. Fees are really the last thing to be decided, we have no idea now how the whole crypto scene will look when we are finally ready to launch 2.0.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #761 on: February 21, 2016, 10:52:35 am »

So you will decide what happens, even if the majority of NXT holders oppose it? Do you realize that resembles a dictatorship?

Why is it that you get to decide the big picture of what NXT 2.0 will look like, and the community (NXT holders) get to decide only the small details? Maybe the community does not want your vision of NXT 2.0, but wants something else?

I am the lead architect of this software. All that I get to decide is its internal design. And I do that after prolonged technical discussions with the core developers who are also familiar with how the platform works and can make realistic judgement of what can work and what can't, and how things should be done.

Sorry to be blunt about it, but the community at large lacks the competence to make the big software design decisions. And this thread shows that very clearly.

Quote
Also, aren't you being paid to work on NXT? You're an employee, that is all. You should work on what the NXT holders tell you to work on.
Really? I didn't know that. Tell me where to collect my paychecks for the last two years, please.
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websioux

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #762 on: February 21, 2016, 11:10:55 am »

The 2.0 design will be implemented, either by me and the other core devs, or by a competitor who does not need to make such compromises.

I know what I would do if some "perfect" coin, a scalable, quantum resistant, NXT (like OAK) was launched by some qualified devs...  8)

Asset holders wealth is expressed with influence of the value of the underlying coin. But asset value is different: that's why some choose to buy and others sell.

No one knows what the value of NXT would be compared to the value of META(fNXT).

It's like a fixed fiat quantity compared to gold on a free market.

One day, there will either be :
- a hard fork where some NXT forgers will vote by choosing not to support one of the fork (POS governance model).
- or a competitor launch.

What will come first ?
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yassin54

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #763 on: February 21, 2016, 11:15:01 am »

https://www.deepdotweb.com/2016/02/08/nsa-switches-to-quantum-resistant-cryptography/
NSA claims SHA-256 is insecure.
Nxt also have this concerns,will consider some improvement in 2.0?
Good Point!!  :)
What do you think for IOTA Jean-Luc or maybe another solution ?  8)

lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #764 on: February 21, 2016, 11:31:34 am »

I asked for the possibility to vote on hard coded fNXT minimum fee with the option of a) your proposed fee and b) 0.5x, c) 2x options to be decided by the community or for explanation why 0.5x or 2x are insecure while 1x is secure. If there is no good explanation with precise calculations, it makes it an arbitrary decision on your part which makes it safe to assume that 0.5x and 2x should also be relatively secure, they are not that far from 1x, not an order of decimal magnitude.
If you meant compromises about the specific fee values, of course, the possible options should be explained and justified, and voting done if there is disagreement. The base fee, around which other fees are calculated, is something that forgers should vote on (by fNXT balance).

This is the kind of response I expected instead of the "No" in your first reply to my question on the fNXT minimum/base fee. Thanks.
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McFly

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #765 on: February 21, 2016, 11:32:45 am »

Quick question, hope this was not discussed before: Can't the value of NXT and fNXT be sticked together? Make NXT and fNXT exchangable - always - in the client - 1:1 ratio. No conversation about a fair distribution - everybody who wants fNXT can exchange it at some time or revert it back to NXT. And there is no inflation in the ecosystem by a *2 factor because of new fNXT. At least this will make NXT something special and not just another sidechain which hopefully gives it some value.
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maddy83

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #766 on: February 21, 2016, 11:51:53 am »

Quote
Also, aren't you being paid to work on NXT? You're an employee, that is all. You should work on what the NXT holders tell you to work on.
Really? I didn't know that. Tell me where to collect my paychecks for the last two years, please.

I was under the impression that the devs get paid. That is what someone said here once, but maybe I was wrong. Could someone clarify this?

I am the lead architect of this software. All that I get to decide is its internal design. And I do that after prolonged technical discussions with the core developers who are also familiar with how the platform works and can make realistic judgement of what can work and what can't, and how things should be done.

Sorry to be blunt about it, but the community at large lacks the competence to make the big software design decisions. And this thread shows that very clearly.

Do you feel comfortable as a lead architech with making this kind of fundamental change to the platform? As a lead architech, your responsibility should not only be the addition of new features, but to ensure that the existing platform remains stable, and the interests of the existing stakeholders are not diminished. There should be a balance between new features and stability.

I understand the argument for scalability, but I am still not convinced that it is an urgent issue at this time.

I also do not understand the argument why childchains are needed (other than scalability). There is the vague argument that some "businesses" are asking for it, but they can't be named. Even if we do this, the problem is that NXT does not benefit in any way from the childchains (fNXT does). NXT will be reduced to the status of just another MS currency.

I am even thinking that this kind of dual-use what NXT currently has (forging + transactions) may actually be what gives it value. What if the value of NXT + fNXT is actually less than NXT in the current form? NXT has less value because it is not special in any way, and anyone can launch their own childchain instead of using NXT. And fNXT has less value because the only value it can have is the forging fees it generates. But that is dependent on the amount of transactions etc.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #767 on: February 21, 2016, 11:58:26 am »

Quick question, hope this was not discussed before: Can't the value of NXT and fNXT be sticked together? Make NXT and fNXT exchangable - always - in the client - 1:1 ratio. No conversation about a fair distribution - everybody who wants fNXT can exchange it at some time or revert it back to NXT. And there is no inflation in the ecosystem by a *2 factor because of new fNXT. At least this will make NXT something special and not just another sidechain which hopefully gives it some value.

This can't be done as the two tokens have different functionnality and therefor different market value.
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wolffang

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #768 on: February 21, 2016, 12:02:31 pm »

Quote
I understand the argument for scalability, but I am still not convinced that it is an urgent issue at this time.

If you 'll keep thinking that and keep waiting, Nxt will never stay ahead of the competition!

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McFly

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #769 on: February 21, 2016, 12:06:07 pm »

Quick question, hope this was not discussed before: Can't the value of NXT and fNXT be sticked together? Make NXT and fNXT exchangable - always - in the client - 1:1 ratio. No conversation about a fair distribution - everybody who wants fNXT can exchange it at some time or revert it back to NXT. And there is no inflation in the ecosystem by a *2 factor because of new fNXT. At least this will make NXT something special and not just another sidechain which hopefully gives it some value.

This can't be done as the two tokens have different functionnality and therefor different market value.
I think it could be done, for sure they have different functionality and market value, but it will regulate itself by the amount of fNXT in existence - I would say.
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farl4bit

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #770 on: February 21, 2016, 12:07:54 pm »

Quote from: Riker

The end user will only transact in the side chain token both for value transfer and fees. Only whoever maintains the side chain (perhaps the business owner) need to deal with fNXT.
For example, assume that I'm using a side chain token to pay for concert tickets.
There is one account distributing the tokens to users who pay fiat in return and perhaps 1000's of accounts getting the tokens and using them as entrance ticket.

Using MS, each concert visitor has to also obtain NXT in order to transact. This is unrealistic since it means that the organizer has to fund 1000's of accounts with NXT and make sure they won't run out of NXT but also make sure not to get manipulated by users which will use these NXT for something else.

Using child chain, the owner creates a child chain, distributes only the child chain tokens to 1000's of accounts which can immediately use it to transact in the child chain token and pay fees in the child chain token without possessing any NXT. Only when the business owner decides to submit a ChildChainBlock transaction to the main chain then the business owner pays the fNXT fees and receives the fees in the child chain token.

I need more of this reallife case examples to understand the usage of the Nxt 2.0 design. It complicated to join the discussion, because arguments against 2.0 are mostly not maintainable or technical impossible.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #771 on: February 21, 2016, 12:11:28 pm »

Quick question, hope this was not discussed before: Can't the value of NXT and fNXT be sticked together? Make NXT and fNXT exchangable - always - in the client - 1:1 ratio. No conversation about a fair distribution - everybody who wants fNXT can exchange it at some time or revert it back to NXT. And there is no inflation in the ecosystem by a *2 factor because of new fNXT. At least this will make NXT something special and not just another sidechain which hopefully gives it some value.

This can't be done as the two tokens have different functionnality and therefor different market value.
I think it could be done, for sure they have different functionality and market value, but it will regulate itself by the amount of fNXT in existence - I would say.

Sorry it can't work like that economically, you just say yourself, i.e. different function ans market value, so 1:1 exchange is non-sense. The one more valuable will be exchange for more wealth than the cheaper one. So 1:1 exchange will never happen, unless someone want to loss money.
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farl4bit

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #772 on: February 21, 2016, 12:22:46 pm »

Quote
I understand the argument for scalability, but I am still not convinced that it is an urgent issue at this time.

If you 'll keep thinking that and keep waiting, Nxt will never stay ahead of the competition!

+1440
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McFly

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #773 on: February 21, 2016, 12:42:56 pm »

Quick question, hope this was not discussed before: Can't the value of NXT and fNXT be sticked together? Make NXT and fNXT exchangable - always - in the client - 1:1 ratio. No conversation about a fair distribution - everybody who wants fNXT can exchange it at some time or revert it back to NXT. And there is no inflation in the ecosystem by a *2 factor because of new fNXT. At least this will make NXT something special and not just another sidechain which hopefully gives it some value.

This can't be done as the two tokens have different functionnality and therefor different market value.
I think it could be done, for sure they have different functionality and market value, but it will regulate itself by the amount of fNXT in existence - I would say.

Sorry it can't work like that economically, you just say yourself, i.e. different function ans market value, so 1:1 exchange is non-sense. The one more valuable will be exchange for more wealth than the cheaper one. So 1:1 exchange will never happen, unless someone want to loss money.

Well, not too sure, I am not talking about fNXT as an asset or so. Think of it from another viewpoint. NXT and fNXT are the same. NXT and fNXT have the same value, always, because they are 1:1 convertible. You would convert to fNXT if you want to forge (because you would like to support the platform or earn TX fees). If the value of NXT goes up people may sell fNXT or hold less fNXT, sure, but everybody does. I consider fNXT as "checked out NXT" or "locked NXT" for forging but it has always the same value than NXT itself. The problem may be that only few are willing to hold fNXT because there is no huge return except the TX fees, but the more TX will happen the more people may be willing to also hold fNXT and forge. I think it could be worth to consider it.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #774 on: February 21, 2016, 12:50:31 pm »

NXT and fNXT are the same.

But they will clearly not be the same. You can't force two different things to be worth the same value.
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chanc3r

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #775 on: February 21, 2016, 12:56:22 pm »

I dont post much these days, but I thought I would enter the 2.0 debate a little as I had wondered how NXT would continue to compete as its getting quite old for a cryptocurrency. I was wondering with so much delivered in NXT 1.7, what would deliver that same cutting edge feel that NXT has help for so long and then I see the NXT 2.0 thread and I realise that the cutting edge thinking behind the genesis of NXT has not gone away.

Ok so NXT 2.0 is a YEAR AWAY, that implies our DEVs are committing at least another year of their talents to moving forward the platform, that in itself is great news. The platform today is already the result of 2 years of hard work by some very capable developers and its ready for the next step of its evolution..

After a year when many claimed crypto 2.0 platforms have been launched, many NXT features have still be be successfully implemented by other platforms, AE being a case in point.. Also with 1.7 there is a huge amount of unused value in the platform, 2.0 brings another leap forward that will leave others behind.

There is uncertainly, people will worry about the value of NXT and fNXT and whether one will succeed, this is natural, both with succeed or both with bomb and become worthless.. Well one thing is for certain, without this kind of innovations from the DEVs and the dedication of businesses to drive adoption NXT will lose value.

I think the clarity around the implementation of fNXT is good, we know every holder of NXT will get fNXT, NXT will become the first child chain and the existing NXT and AE activities etc will move to that chain.. This will prove that fNXT works and is open for business for new chains to be created.

There is no point talking about NXT and fNXT being the same, having the same value, you need to imagine that fNXT exists and NXT was simple created and established by someone as a side chain.

The NXT devs could have adopted a plan to take the platform, create fNXT with all of its capabilities, do a new and lucrative distribution and leave NXT to wither and die as the new platform took off... The crypto space is littered with examples of this, I think we need to give our NXT devs the credit that they do not have this mercenary outlook.

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bahamapascal

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #776 on: February 21, 2016, 12:57:55 pm »

I finde the Nxt 2.0 Idea quite interesting. But after all, it is a Idea (so I understand and hope) and what we got here is the first draft/concept, which is ment to be discussed, taken apart and most of all be improved if necessary.


I think there are lots of points that need to be thought over and discussed, but for now I see one point that is most important for now, and that's the whole AE economy "drama". If we solve this I am sure the whole proposal can be discussed much better, hopefully without FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).


Problem:


With the current proposel there will be some dramatic economical changes when the 2.0 Hardfork goes live. Market will have to adopt to the new supply (fNXT), that will very likely lead to some extrem swings in NXT price and fNxt price until the market has decided the new value. This alone will have a presumably big impact on the AE market.
More so, there is a very likely chance that (shortly) pre 2.0 release there will be a major sell off of Assets from investors that want there net worth in Nxt to also get the share of fNXT.
Cuncluding, the Assets value will get fu**t. Short term that is(probably).


Reaction:


Assets issuers want to Protekt there assets/ asset holders. Asset holder don't wan't there assets to get fu**t and get mad. New potential Asset issuers might not use Nxt platform, due to this. Some Asset issuers will leave for another platform (or create there own).
Concluding, NXT loses a large percentage of its use case. Very Bad. << (!!!)


(possible)
Solution:


The problem actually is the sudden change of the new supply that will be distributed all at once to the Nxt holders. <<< (See "Problem" for why that is a problem)
So the solution should be in the way fNxt gets distributed.
There are many ways to do that, so we just have to find the best. So get your thinking caps on.


Now one possibility would be to do it by an IPO of fNxt assets. These assets should be distributed when the fundamentals of NXT 2.0 are coded, but still a good time before the actual hardfork.
The IPO has to run for an extensive time, maybe 3 to 6 month. That is so that there is a great distribution and so that assets holders are not forced to dump there assets in case they want in.
There are several ways to do an IPO, I would propose one similar to the original Nxt IPO. (subject to discussion)
Funds raised from the fNxt asset IPO would/could be used to fund the Nxt development.
When Nxt 2.0 goes live, every one will still have there "normal" Nxt with all futures except of forging and the fNxt will be distributed to a 1:1 basis to the fNxt holders.


This method will grantee a minimum market cap of fNxt and there won't be a sudden decline in Nxt price, AE economy will stay smooth and the transition to Nxt 2.0 should hardly be noticed, except for some cool new futures under the hood.


There are also other ways of distribution I have in mined that should work as well. But I will leave it at this, for now, as I want others to put there thinking caps on as well.




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McFly

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #777 on: February 21, 2016, 01:01:00 pm »

NXT and fNXT are the same.

But they will clearly not be the same. You can't force two different things to be worth the same value.
Don't want to upset you :D But: why not? NXT is made out of code, and code is written by someone. If you define NXT=fNXT it will reguate itself by the amount of fNXT beeing hold. fNXT would be just "locked NXT for forging". The benefit would be that it would make NXT special in the world of sidechains as you can always convert 1:1. And you have not another layer of inflation and no AE holders complaining about unfair distribution. But for sure, in this case, the question is how many people are willing to hold fNXT for forging.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 01:09:21 pm by McFly »
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Sebastien256

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #778 on: February 21, 2016, 01:14:29 pm »

NXT and fNXT are the same.

But they will clearly not be the same. You can't force two different things to be worth the same value.
Don't want to upset you :D But: why not? NXT is made out of code, and code is written by someone. If you define NXT=fNXT it will reguate itself by the amount of fNXT beeing hold. fNXT would be just "locked NXT for forging". The benefit would be that it would make NXT special in the world of sidechains. And you have not another layer of inflation. But for sure, in this case, the question is how many people are willing to hold fNXT for forging.

Note that, you can always trade off exchange, so you can't really impose a price. If the tokens have different functionnalities they will worth different value. You can't design NXT=fNXT as this is not the goal of this design, the whole idea is to split functionnality into two tokens so one chain can be pruned. So, the two tokens cannot be considered equal.

You are not upsseting me :)
I just try to explain the best I can.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 01:18:02 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #779 on: February 21, 2016, 01:20:15 pm »

Today is Sunday, shuffling time again! Start your shufflers and let's do some mixing. Plan to dump your NXT? Put them through a shuffling first!

Shuffling 16802083461095883127 successfully finished, 100,000 NXT shuffled between 6 accounts.
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