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Author Topic: Nxt 2.0 design  (Read 217039 times)

follas

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #500 on: February 18, 2016, 03:37:39 pm »

Discussing rationally is great, if really done. But in the end we need a way to make a decision. With asset investors equally valuable as NXT holders, Damelon, do you think that 1 NXT = 1 vote is the right way to make a decision? Should we allocate voting power to asset investors? And who decides that? Can "we" make such decisions based on forum discussions?

I'd suggest the following :

1. Top 20 forum members (by posts and ratings, excluding core devs)
2. Top 20 forgers (i.e those who have mined the most blocks for the last 3 months)
3. Give permision to the top 20 assets and their holders to vote (judge by volume and market cap), as that affects them a lot
4. and finallly the Core devs
(Get the percentages from each group, divide by 4 and add them up)

I know that leaves a few people out, but I think those who are into this will vote based both on their best interest which probably will also be best for the community.

We should also try and reach consensus (probably 65% or 2/3), not just a 51% democracy.
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Benzedi

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #501 on: February 18, 2016, 04:21:26 pm »

People critiquing the idea that if we do 1:1 snapshot before the 2.0 release the price will bubble. I don't see a problem with that.

Even in real-life stocks the price will naturally increase closer to the dividend date and go back down after.
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durerus

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #502 on: February 18, 2016, 04:27:08 pm »

Yes, the forgers "vote", but their interest need to be informed by ALL people with interest in the system. This is why all opinions and observations are important.
It's also why before we even start coding, we need to have a minimum alignment.

But before devs code software that forgers vote on, how to reach an alignment? By the voting system. Who should be allowed to vote? Who should have how much voting power? There are no objective numbers on how much asset investors for example contributed to NXT. The only objective number is how much NXT you own. Anything else than 1 NXT = 1 vote is arbitrary.

With 1 NXT = 1 vote the result, an overwhelming affirmation of JL's original idea, will be clear due to economic interest of NXT holders.

BTW: The presentation of George Papageorgiou is not completely applicable to asset investors. Devs code for a higher value of NXT, because they are stakeholders themselves. That's why I welcome devs talking, understanding and developping based on economics. Investors invest and forgers forge for the same reason: a higher value of NXT. Businesses don't necessarily care about the value of NXT as long as it is high enough to secure the functions of NXT they use. That is O.K. Only asset investors have a different goal: They want a higher value of the asset they invested in and not necessarily of NXT. This conflict of interest cannot be solved. You can't give somebody a vote who is not involved, because he sold his NXT for assets.

Or do you have any suggestion on how to solve that conflict of interest? Of course, we can educate ourselves by discussing. But I strongly suggest that we end up with 1 NXT = 1 vote to reach the alignment.
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maddy83

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #503 on: February 18, 2016, 05:15:56 pm »

Regarding whether we "need" this NXT/fNXT split in the first place, I am bit worried that it increases the complexity of the system for an "average" user.

It's probably difficult for most non-tech people to understand how NXT works in the current form, but it is still pretty simple concept that you have a dual-use token for forging and making payments. So after the split, how does the "average" guy make sense of this? He gets some NXT to make some payments, but now some mysterious fNXT group is doing the forging. That just feels like Bitcoin where some big centralized miners are mining, and the regular users are disconnected from that process.

I also realize that NXT has been very much "tech driven", but NXT is proof that having cool or advanced tech does not create value by itself. Those features need users. We have a lot of features already that are not very heavily utilized (MS, DGS, etc.) and we just keep adding more features. NXT is becoming more and more a "technology demo", rather than something which is used for payments etc. Now, I am fine with that direction, as long we have some understanding that is (or should be) the niche NXT wants to fill.

Of course, I do understand the problem of blockchain bloat. I am just questioning whether it is such a problem at this stage.
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MrV777

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #504 on: February 18, 2016, 05:34:57 pm »

Regarding whether we "need" this NXT/fNXT split in the first place, I am bit worried that it increases the complexity of the system for an "average" user.

I'm still thinking this out, but would the "average" user ever really care about fNXT?  They would just need to know about the currency they are using.  All the fNXT should be just for the "advanced" user
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maddy83

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #505 on: February 18, 2016, 05:54:56 pm »

Regarding whether we "need" this NXT/fNXT split in the first place, I am bit worried that it increases the complexity of the system for an "average" user.

I'm still thinking this out, but would the "average" user ever really care about fNXT?  They would just need to know about the currency they are using.  All the fNXT should be just for the "advanced" user

I was just wondering if some users would be more discouraged in getting into NXT if they can't understand how it works. But I don't think that will be a very big issue at this stage of crypto.

The bigger issue is the question of separating users and forgers into separate groups, effectively copying that aspect of Bitcoin. Now instead of special hardware, like in BTC, user needs to buy some fNXT to participate in forging/mining. Are we destroying some fundamental benefit of POS here?
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Stadtfeger

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #506 on: February 18, 2016, 06:48:00 pm »

makes a client easy to install then all will be well... than we can talk of NXT 2.0 ...3.0  and so on!
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TheWireMaster

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #507 on: February 18, 2016, 07:51:44 pm »

I think that the current implementation of NXT is quite cool.
As mentioned previously, I would leave it as it is and simply allow MS to be self sustainable, which means that fees are paid in that currency.
Asset Exchange, Marketplace could stay as they are, but simply issuers/sellers can choose in which currency issue/sell them.
Features as Voting, Data Cloud, Aliases can stay simply with the main currency NXT.
A user that wants to use the UI in a certain currency can switch and have the full set of functionalities if using NXT, only the financial functionalities if he/she chooses a specific currency.
I didn't really understand the way the pruning will work, but wouldn't that be possible also in this kind of implementation?
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durerus

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #508 on: February 18, 2016, 08:19:35 pm »

As mentioned previously, I would leave it as it is and simply allow MS to be self sustainable, which means that fees are paid in that currency.
Than an attacker could fill up all the blocks with costless MS coin transactions, if he uses a worthless MS coin.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #509 on: February 18, 2016, 08:29:20 pm »

I was just wondering if some users would be more discouraged in getting into NXT if they can't understand how it works. But I don't think that will be a very big issue at this stage of crypto.

The bigger issue is the question of separating users and forgers into separate groups, effectively copying that aspect of Bitcoin. Now instead of special hardware, like in BTC, user needs to buy some fNXT to participate in forging/mining. Are we destroying some fundamental benefit of POS here?

Agree very much. The fundamental strength of NXT is that the power is with the coin holders. They decide with their forging power what changes will ultimately be accepted for NXT. This is easy to understand and explained to newcomers and very attractive feature.

Explaining that you have to buy fNXT for that but this fNXT does not have many features, for that you have to buy NXT as well, makes it much more complicated to explain and less attractive.

Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #510 on: February 18, 2016, 08:35:09 pm »

I was just wondering if some users would be more discouraged in getting into NXT if they can't understand how it works. But I don't think that will be a very big issue at this stage of crypto.

The bigger issue is the question of separating users and forgers into separate groups, effectively copying that aspect of Bitcoin. Now instead of special hardware, like in BTC, user needs to buy some fNXT to participate in forging/mining. Are we destroying some fundamental benefit of POS here?

Agree very much. The fundamental strength of NXT is that the power is with the coin holders. They decide with their forging power what changes will ultimately be accepted for NXT. This is easy to understand and explained to newcomers and very attractive feature.

Explaining that you have to buy fNXT for that but this fNXT does not have many features, for that you have to buy NXT as well, makes it much more complicated to explain and less attractive.

Now we are coming back to the question that was never fully explored: is it possible to scale without an f/NXT split? Given that everything is still supposed to be on the table, it's worth establishing that beyond doubt. <Ducks>
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #511 on: February 18, 2016, 08:37:00 pm »

I also realize that NXT has been very much "tech driven", but NXT is proof that having cool or advanced tech does not create value by itself. Those features need users. We have a lot of features already that are not very heavily utilized (MS, DGS, etc.) and we just keep adding more features. NXT is becoming more and more a "technology demo", rather than something which is used for payments etc. Now, I am fine with that direction, as long we have some understanding that is (or should be) the niche NXT wants to fill.

Of course, I do understand the problem of blockchain bloat. I am just questioning whether it is such a problem at this stage.

I agree, if you ask 'what is the biggest problem nxt has today?' it is adoption. The amount of transactions is only 2000 per day :( Many of the new features (like shuffling, MS) need much more work to get user friendly enough to reach adoption.

Scalability is not our problem today. Finding new users is our challenge. 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 08:45:39 pm by Marc De Mesel »
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #512 on: February 18, 2016, 08:37:14 pm »

I am proposing again to make the childchain migration process prolonged over time instead of brute splitting of the coin.
Here is how it works:

- Leave the NXT as the mother currency. It will be unprunable blockchain.
- Create sidechains infrastructure.
- Create the NXT replacement sidechain. Let's call it NXT2.

Now start making people migrate to NXT2 chain. To start with make higher TPS (10x higher is a good start). Motherchain won't get any new features so it will be frozen forever with the current featureset. Now start raising fees on the motherchain eg increase them 2x every month.
Finally most of the activity and capital should flow into NXT2 without forcefully taking away the value from asset and NXT holders. Also we will be able to avoid financial shocks and asset dumps, have better backwards compatibility with current services and more time for people to adapt.

Also we can eventually recreate the Genesis again and remove the bloat of the outdated motherchain. Finally NXT2 will be as lightweight as proposed 2.0 design.
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #513 on: February 18, 2016, 08:38:24 pm »

I also realize that NXT has been very much "tech driven", but NXT is proof that having cool or advanced tech does not create value by itself. Those features need users. We have a lot of features already that are not very heavily utilized (MS, DGS, etc.) and we just keep adding more features. NXT is becoming more and more a "technology demo", rather than something which is used for payments etc. Now, I am fine with that direction, as long we have some understanding that is (or should be) the niche NXT wants to fill.

Of course, I do understand the problem of blockchain bloat. I am just questioning whether it is such a problem at this stage.

I agree, if you ask 'what is the biggest problem nxt has today?' it is adoption. Many of the new features (like shuffling, MS) need much more work to get user friendly enough to reach adoption.

Scalability is not our problem. Finding new users is our challenge.

Child chains is a very good potential market. That seems to be the feedback from businesses - they want their own off-the-peg blockchain, but not to pay fees in a different currency (as with MS). So doing this right would likely help a lot with adoption.
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #514 on: February 18, 2016, 08:41:08 pm »

I think that the current implementation of NXT is quite cool.
As mentioned previously, I would leave it as it is and simply allow MS to be self sustainable, which means that fees are paid in that currency.
Asset Exchange, Marketplace could stay as they are, but simply issuers/sellers can choose in which currency issue/sell them.
Features as Voting, Data Cloud, Aliases can stay simply with the main currency NXT.
A user that wants to use the UI in a certain currency can switch and have the full set of functionalities if using NXT, only the financial functionalities if he/she chooses a specific currency.
I didn't really understand the way the pruning will work, but wouldn't that be possible also in this kind of implementation?

Right on WireMaster. Jean Luc, I think this is the right way forward.   8)

martismartis

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #515 on: February 18, 2016, 08:42:10 pm »

After thinking again about JL proposal started to understand, that there is no big problem with fnxt stuff. Today I forge with 10K NXT, other 180K are in assets. After the 2.0 fork, I'll have the same 10K in forging power (fnxt) and the same 180K in assets. Is forging so profitable, that I will need to dump my assets to get fnxt and have 190K fnxt and forging power? How much I will forge and will it be more profitable than receiving dividends from assets? Today 4747...888 has the biggest forging power and will have the same power after 2.0 fork, the same with me, I'll have the same forging power with my 10K effective balance. If forging would be so profitable, we should see forging more than 40% of forging power as of today.

What do I miss?
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cc001

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #516 on: February 18, 2016, 09:07:31 pm »

I agree, if you ask 'what is the biggest problem nxt has today?' it is adoption. The amount of transactions is only 2000 per day :( Many of the new features (like shuffling, MS) need much more work to get user friendly enough to reach adoption.

Scalability is not our problem today. Finding new users is our challenge.

This! FULL ACK
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abctc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #517 on: February 18, 2016, 09:14:13 pm »

Today I forge with 10K NXT, other 180K are in assets.
...
What do I miss?
- you do not have 180K NXT.
Your assets may worth 180K NXT, or may worth 0 NXT. And that was your decision - to get rid of 180K NXT and change them to assets.
So you are right, you have 10K NXT effective balance, that's all.
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LocoMB

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #518 on: February 18, 2016, 09:16:43 pm »

I agree, if you ask 'what is the biggest problem nxt has today?' it is adoption. The amount of transactions is only 2000 per day :( Many of the new features (like shuffling, MS) need much more work to get user friendly enough to reach adoption.

Scalability is not our problem today. Finding new users is our challenge.

This! FULL ACK

This! FULL ACK
!
and that is not going to happen with just doubling the supply!

Ultimately, fNXT == NXT because forgers must sell the fNXT somehow - so fNXT will hit the exchanges NXT, == DILUTION

correct my if I am wrong- maybe there is a built in mechanism to prevent fNXT from being traded? but that would be kind of silly and centralized, no?

so what i the difference again? fNXT is the forging token, but not the currency, and NXT is the currency, but not the forging token, but the forging token somehow has to be convertible into a currency- which makes it - what exactly? A currency?
How can I trade in my fNXT? Something to do with the sidechains?

And which business is going to rely on such a nebulous model? Adoption? Yes we'll see how that's gonna work out!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 09:21:30 pm by LocoMB »
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Riker

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #519 on: February 18, 2016, 09:24:26 pm »

Meanwhile http://www.coindesk.com/researchers-redesign-scaling-decentralized-blockchains/
"... The increasing popularity of bitcoin as a digital currency has made scalability a "primary and urgent concern" for the bitcoin network, the authors say, touching upon a topic that has been hotly debated for months in the bitcoin space."
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