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Author Topic: Nxt 2.0 design  (Read 211045 times)

lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #400 on: February 17, 2016, 11:51:14 am »

Many assets are and overvalued right now and have always been overvalued in their history. Their prices will go down guaranteed if the price of NXT goes up. Why? Because the supply of NXT is only 1 billion, and that 1 billion is chasing a few billions of assets market caps. It's unrealistic and naive to expect the prices of assets to stay high unless you dilute and print more NXT coins in the same manner they do with fiat and stock market. Read this again, the prices of assets are guaranteed to go down with or without any NXT 2.0 changes, especially the assets that are vaporware which is a good part of them.

No shit sherlock.

These points have zero to do with what I am discussing on this thread.

On the contrary, they have everything to do with the risk calculation. But I feel you will keep blaming devs, who somehow abused your trust. The devs didn't guarantee you anything, they are free to quit any time, the project is open source and can be forked, the community can disagree with the changes and stay on the old chain. F*ck, stop complaining, it's your damn fault you didn't see through vaporware promises of certain asset issuers and bought into the hype.
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Windjc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #401 on: February 17, 2016, 11:53:30 am »

Many assets are and overvalued right now and have always been overvalued in their history. Their prices will go down guaranteed if the price of NXT goes up. Why? Because the supply of NXT is only 1 billion, and that 1 billion is chasing a few billions of assets market caps. It's unrealistic and naive to expect the prices of assets to stay high unless you dilute and print more NXT coins in the same manner they do with fiat and stock market. Read this again, the prices of assets are guaranteed to go down with or without any NXT 2.0 changes, especially the assets that are vaporware which is a good part of them.

No shit sherlock.

These points have zero to do with what I am discussing on this thread.

On the contrary, they have everything to do with the risk calculation. But I feel you will keep blaming devs, who somehow abused your trust. The devs didn't guarantee you anything, they are free to quit any time, the project is open source and can be forked, the community can disagree with the changes and stay on the old chain. F*ck, stop complaining, it's your damn fault you didn't see through vaporware promises of certain asset issuers and bought into the hype.

Of course. That WHY I said in my original post in this thread that I invest in DEVS not projects. Devs I trust. And if Devs betray my trust I will leave. Which I will do if things go south because of this.

Which part of that post do you need help comprehending? I am losing my patience trying to help you.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 11:55:42 am by Windjc »
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lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #402 on: February 17, 2016, 12:00:11 pm »

Of course. That WHY I said in my original post in this thread that I INVEST in devs not projects. Devs I trust. And if Devs betray my  trust I will leave. Which I will do if things go south because of this.

Which part of that post do you need help comprehending? I am losing my patience trying to help you.

I am not the one who needs help, you complain, not me. Your threats to leave are nothing but stupid looking. Devs don't owe you anything, it's a gamble we're all part of, it's your responsibility to calculate risks.
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Damelon

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #403 on: February 17, 2016, 12:15:32 pm »

Of course. That WHY I said in my original post in this thread that I INVEST in devs not projects. Devs I trust. And if Devs betray my  trust I will leave. Which I will do if things go south because of this.

Which part of that post do you need help comprehending? I am losing my patience trying to help you.

I am not the one who needs help, you complain, not me. Your threats to leave are nothing but stupid looking. Devs don't owe you anything, it's a gamble we're all part of, it's your responsibility to calculate risks.

I disagree here. Of course the devs owe us something.
And a gamble is not a real gamble if the rules change during the game, which is what Windjc is fearing maybe.

This is an open discussion and investor concerns MATTER.

Cryptocurrency is not just a dev game where we are invited along for the ride. It's a new system where the interests of devs, investors, users and businesses are in a dynamic. A comment by an investor is part of that dynamic.

To me, that is what makes this whole adventure we are all in interesting. Devs are not all-knowing. They need input from people with interests other than theirs. :)
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lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #404 on: February 17, 2016, 12:25:10 pm »

And a gamble is not a real gamble if the rules change during the game

There is the ultimate gamble where rules change during the game, called Life.
NXT is all about changing rules, new features - new rules.
Ultimately, consensus of forgers decides.
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Sebastien256

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #405 on: February 17, 2016, 12:26:51 pm »

A snapshot right the day before the proposal is a good idea imo, if a 1:1 distribution is to be taken. It would save some side effects related to eventual AE dumping and market crash.

Would be nice to have others opinon on the matter.
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lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #406 on: February 17, 2016, 12:37:04 pm »

A snapshot right the day before the proposal is a good idea imo, if a 1:1 distribution is to be taken. It would save some side effects related to eventual AE dumping and market crash.

Would be nice to have others opinon on the matter.

It doesn't help.

People will complain that it's not fair, because they were 'supporting the NXT ecosystem by investing in assets' and now they don't get fNXT. They expect to privatize profits from holding assets and socialize their personal losses by making everyone share the fNXT they received from saving NXT losing the potential to profit from assets. People don't want to take responsibility, they want f*cking socialism and bailouts every time. If NXT fails, it will fail for no other reason than trying to meet these socialistic demands.
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Damelon

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #407 on: February 17, 2016, 12:38:14 pm »

And a gamble is not a real gamble if the rules change during the game

There is the ultimate gamble where rules change during the game, called Life.
NXT is all about changing rules, new features - new rules.
Ultimately, consensus of forgers decides.

I think this is overstating it, as well as implicitly saying "I am right and you are not, whatever you say".

The above is, as anything, an opinion.
Your opinion, and I disagree. This is something inherent in all crypto projects and people seem to have difficulty accepting that.

The forgers decide which fork to follow, nothing else.
They don't decide which people can use the chain: which is good.
They don't decide if businesses will like their fork: which is good
They don't decide "good" or "bad": which is a relief
They don't decide where I should spend my Nxt: which is good.

The forgers are just ONE piece of the complete system, which includes many other stakeholders without whom the system would FAIL.

If your argument would be correct, any system with forgers or miners would succeed, because nothing else is needed.
This is obviously not true, as there are many projects that are not worth anything. This means there must be another reason for these projects to succeed, which is the other people with incentives.

Read http://www.bitcoinwednesday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Bitcoins-Incentive-Structure.pdf

This document is very worthwhile in getting a grip on how the system works in Bitcoin and it can illuminate many aspects of any crypto. :)
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lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #408 on: February 17, 2016, 12:41:23 pm »

You're right, Damelon, it's an opinion. Thanks for your mediation. The forum would be a hot spot without you :)
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #409 on: February 17, 2016, 12:43:35 pm »

Why do people assume that asset prices will go down because of the increased demand for NXT at the time of the snapshot? Assets being not very liquid, selling them in order to have NXT at that time, and then trying to buy them again after, is the least rational approach, as you can't sell or buy much without affecting the price. Isn't it much more likely that people will buy NXT on exchanges, using BTC, ETH, USD, CNY, whatever they have but also whatever is liquid enough? Unless all your investments are into NXT and assets, and you have nothing else more liquid than those assets, but this is very unwise portfolio to have.

Taking a snapshot from before the 2.0 design announcement is technically possible, however it would hurt the Nxt stakeholders by preventing a possible (and quite likely) price increase in anticipation of the future snapshot. And such price increase would not come from asset owners selling for NXT, but BTC and fiat holders buying NXT, in amounts likely exceeding those coming from asset sellers (because of the liquidity problem). Yes, there would be a dump after the snapshot, but still some of those entering NXT in order to get fNXT at snapshot time would opt to keep at least some of it, expecting future platform growth, so overall the effect on price would be positive.
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Freebieservers

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #410 on: February 17, 2016, 12:57:08 pm »

Why do people assume that asset prices will go down because of the increased demand for NXT at the time of the snapshot? Assets being not very liquid, selling them in order to have NXT at that time, and then trying to buy them again after, is the least rational approach, as you can't sell or buy much without affecting the price. Isn't it much more likely that people will buy NXT on exchanges, using BTC, ETH, USD, CNY, whatever they have but also whatever is liquid enough? Unless all your investments are into NXT and assets, and you have nothing else more liquid than those assets, but this is very unwise portfolio to have.

Taking a snapshot from before the 2.0 design announcement is technically possible, however it would hurt the Nxt stakeholders by preventing a possible (and quite likely) price increase in anticipation of the future snapshot. And such price increase would not come from asset owners selling for NXT, but BTC and fiat holders buying NXT, in amounts likely exceeding those coming from asset sellers (because of the liquidity problem). Yes, there would be a dump after the snapshot, but still some of those entering NXT in order to get fNXT at snapshot time would opt to keep at least some of it, expecting future platform growth, so overall the effect on price would be positive.

I personally see no reason for people to sell their BTC, ETH in the existing bull markets. They'd rather hoard with the hopes of catching another bull rally.
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #411 on: February 17, 2016, 01:38:43 pm »

Why do people assume that asset prices will go down because of the increased demand for NXT at the time of the snapshot? Assets being not very liquid, selling them in order to have NXT at that time, and then trying to buy them again after, is the least rational approach, as you can't sell or buy much without affecting the price. Isn't it much more likely that people will buy NXT on exchanges, using BTC, ETH, USD, CNY, whatever they have but also whatever is liquid enough? Unless all your investments are into NXT and assets, and you have nothing else more liquid than those assets, but this is very unwise portfolio to have.

Taking a snapshot from before the 2.0 design announcement is technically possible, however it would hurt the Nxt stakeholders by preventing a possible (and quite likely) price increase in anticipation of the future snapshot. And such price increase would not come from asset owners selling for NXT, but BTC and fiat holders buying NXT, in amounts likely exceeding those coming from asset sellers (because of the liquidity problem). Yes, there would be a dump after the snapshot, but still some of those entering NXT in order to get fNXT at snapshot time would opt to keep at least some of it, expecting future platform growth, so overall the effect on price would be positive.

I personally see no reason for people to sell their BTC, ETH in the existing bull markets. They'd rather hoard with the hopes of catching another bull rally.

There is also the argument from observation: what is the most rational approach is not what people actually do. Crypto markets are characterised by panic buying and selling if nothing else.

Edit: it's actually a little worse than that - you run the risk (certainty?) of a Keynsian Beauty Contest race to the bottom. If you think one or two irrational people might sell, the most rational course of behaviour is to sell first. And if a larger tranche of people think that rational people are selling because irrational ones might... the crash gets pretty bad pretty fast.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 01:43:48 pm by Cassius »
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #412 on: February 17, 2016, 01:58:00 pm »

Any change or feature we do that increases NXT value relative to assets, or makes people anticipate that NXT value will increase faster in the future relative to asset value, can then be considered as the developers trying to undermine the value of those assets and creating risk of crashing the asset market. By that logic, no further development should be done and we should make sure NXT price remains flat, so that we don't cause asset holders to want to switch to holding NXT instead.
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #413 on: February 17, 2016, 02:04:54 pm »

Any change or feature we do that increases NXT value relative to assets, or makes people anticipate that NXT value will increase faster in the future relative to asset value, can then be considered as the developers trying to undermine the value of those assets and creating risk of crashing the asset market. By that logic, no further development should be done and we should make sure NXT price remains flat, so that we don't cause asset holders to want to switch to holding NXT instead.

Due respect, but that's a reductio ad absurdum.

Edit: there's a difference between a change that will provide long-term value to the whole platform, and a one-time event that can be gamed/exploited for gain (and therefore will be), as well as hopefully providing greater long-term value.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 02:07:41 pm by Cassius »
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websioux

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #414 on: February 17, 2016, 02:17:59 pm »

a one-time event that can be gamed/exploited for gain (and therefore will be)

That is the question : is there in this event a move that guarantee a gain ?

I believe fNXT would go up, NXT down and asset up.. but it seems others would move in the other direction.. so it looks good.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #415 on: February 17, 2016, 02:39:45 pm »

In anticipation of assets going down and then up when people re-buy them after the snapshot, some would take advantage of buying them on the cheap just before the snapshot, after having made sure they hold enough NXT (purchased e.g. with BTC) to get as much fNXT as they consider worthwhile. This would smoothen the asset price depression.

Overall, I think the event will differentiate between valuable assets with long term potential, that will get re-bought after the snapshot, and worthless ones, who people for now continue to hold just in case, but will not bother re-buying them again.
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websioux

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #416 on: February 17, 2016, 02:50:09 pm »

I only see it as an event which forces people to rethink their portfolio. Which they should do as much as possible. But not in something that fundamentally change values.
Or yes, it does increase value of the whole system. And asset values inherits of it.
Whatever the change, communication efforts, and possibly marketing fund should be paid to minimize the number of people not aware of it.
It could really be a good move.
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Benzedi

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #417 on: February 17, 2016, 02:55:11 pm »

A snapshot right the day before the proposal is a good idea imo, if a 1:1 distribution is to be taken. It would save some side effects related to eventual AE dumping and market crash.

Would be nice to have others opinon on the matter.

It doesn't help.

People will complain that it's not fair, because they were 'supporting the NXT ecosystem by investing in assets' and now they don't get fNXT. They expect to privatize profits from holding assets and socialize their personal losses by making everyone share the fNXT they received from saving NXT losing the potential to profit from assets. People don't want to take responsibility, they want f*cking socialism and bailouts every time. If NXT fails, it will fail for no other reason than trying to meet these socialistic demands.

Just give a reasonable period of notice as to when the snapshot will occur and then people can decide whether to keep their NXT in assets or not. That way, it will be the market which determines the new prices which is more capitalistic than anything.

EDIT: I'm not always present in the NXT community but I am getting a bit annoyed of all this talk and no action. Hopefully we can decide on 2.0 features soon, change the name to something completely different (unique), re-brand and market it all substantially. In my opinion that's what we need and fast.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 02:58:40 pm by Benzedi »
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websioux

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #418 on: February 17, 2016, 03:02:42 pm »

Let's dream a bit :

In this move, you have forgers who decide to include a sideChainBlock or not.. that means forgers consensus has more power than today. It is equivalent on deciding on the fee of transactions. I'm sure a lot of miners out there would like this.

You also have an emphasis on archive nodes, they are separated and they can become a different kind of business.

If this is well organised, or at least has the potential to be, then it is a very good move. More power for forgers of the 2.0 scalable POS blockchain chain looks like a great marketing title to me.
I suspect that one of the failure of NXT is that only the devs decide. Here, forgers can decide more on a day to day basis. I'm not sure but if you look at Bitcoin, I would not be surprised that the real net investment is initially made in mining equipment. Because it's a system where miner decides.
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
« Reply #419 on: February 17, 2016, 03:33:29 pm »

In anticipation of assets going down and then up when people re-buy them after the snapshot, some would take advantage of buying them on the cheap just before the snapshot, after having made sure they hold enough NXT (purchased e.g. with BTC) to get as much fNXT as they consider worthwhile. This would smoothen the asset price depression.

Overall, I think the event will differentiate between valuable assets with long term potential, that will get re-bought after the snapshot, and worthless ones, who people for now continue to hold just in case, but will not bother re-buying them again.

Maybe, maybe not. This is the problem.
We are discussing introducing an external shock into an established economic system that has until now functioned on known rules. Everyone involved has understood the rules they implicitly signed up for when they got involved. We're now talking about shifting the goal posts. It will have very real and very significant consequences that can't be fully predicted. This is the kind of intervention many of us got into crypto because we disliked in the real world.
Taking a best guess and suggesting, effectively, that 'it will all come out in the wash, you know' isn't enough under these circumstances. Real people will lose real money.
I like the scalability proposal, in the broad strokes. It's radical, in the literal sense, and imaginative. But let's not pretend it isn't going to be a massive change that could have very significant consequences for existing Nxt stakeholders.
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