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Author Topic: Nxt 2.0 design  (Read 103757 times)

blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:29:55 am

Let's suppose fNXT price will be 1/10 of NXT price. Now we have half of the total NXT forging: 500 000 000 NXT. With lower price I suppose we will have less people forging so we will have say 300 000 000 fNXT forging. It will be equal to 30  million NXT or 300000 USD. To have 50% stake you will need 15 million NXT or 150000 USD. Not a small amount but remember that with this amount you can attack fNXT and get a much bigger main NXT control. So with 150k USD you will be able to destroy 8m USD economics and probably repay your expences back.

By this logic you only need 250k USD now to gain 50% of the forging stake. Try acquiring this much stake for 250k USD.
You calculated it wrong.

lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:32:46 am

Let's suppose fNXT price will be 1/10 of NXT price. Now we have half of the total NXT forging: 500 000 000 NXT. With lower price I suppose we will have less people forging so we will have say 300 000 000 fNXT forging. It will be equal to 30  million NXT or 300000 USD. To have 50% stake you will need 15 million NXT or 150000 USD. Not a small amount but remember that with this amount you can attack fNXT and get a much bigger main NXT control. So with 150k USD you will be able to destroy 8m USD economics and probably repay your expences back.

By this logic you only need 250k USD now to gain 50% of the forging stake. Try acquiring this much stake for 250k USD.
You calculated it wrong.

Can you explain?
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:33:15 am

The fees are interesting.  After reading it a few times, I think I understand how it is supposed to work.  Fees on a child chain are paid in its native token and paid to the chain creator.  However, when a fee is paid, the creator of the chain also pays a fee of at least the minimal fNXT needed.  So every time a transaction happens, the creator needs fNXT, but will receive the chain's native coins.
It is the creator of each specific child chain block, not the creator of the chain itself. The chain creator has no special role at all, any more than the current Genesis account does.
Anyone should be able to create a child chain block, if willing to pay the fee in fNXT and get back the total of native token fees from the child chain transactions. How exactly this will work remains to be thought through, but it should be possible to out-bid a child chain block creator and offer more fNXT for the same content, and then the forger should pick the best offer.
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:34:20 am

Let's suppose fNXT price will be 1/10 of NXT price. Now we have half of the total NXT forging: 500 000 000 NXT. With lower price I suppose we will have less people forging so we will have say 300 000 000 fNXT forging. It will be equal to 30  million NXT or 300000 USD. To have 50% stake you will need 15 million NXT or 150000 USD. Not a small amount but remember that with this amount you can attack fNXT and get a much bigger main NXT control. So with 150k USD you will be able to destroy 8m USD economics and probably repay your expences back.

By this logic you only need 250k USD now to gain 50% of the forging stake. Try acquiring this much stake for 250k USD.
You calculated it wrong.

Can you explain?
By this logic I need at least 2,5m USD to gain 50% of the forging stake right now. And 50%-100% more in real market environment.

lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:36:09 am

Let's suppose fNXT price will be 1/10 of NXT price. Now we have half of the total NXT forging: 500 000 000 NXT. With lower price I suppose we will have less people forging so we will have say 300 000 000 fNXT forging. It will be equal to 30  million NXT or 300000 USD. To have 50% stake you will need 15 million NXT or 150000 USD. Not a small amount but remember that with this amount you can attack fNXT and get a much bigger main NXT control. So with 150k USD you will be able to destroy 8m USD economics and probably repay your expences back.

By this logic you only need 250k USD now to gain 50% of the forging stake. Try acquiring this much stake for 250k USD.
You calculated it wrong.

Can you explain?
By this logic I need at least 2,5m USD to gain 50% of the forging stake right now. And 50%-100% more in real market environment.

yeah, I missed a zero, do you really think you can acquire 50% of the forging stake now if you had 5m USD?
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:36:50 am

There is an awful lot to take in here and a lot of confusion. Please can I urge the TNSSE guys, or someone else suitably capable, to create a clear and accessible explanation.
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:37:16 am

yeah, I missed a zero, do you really think you can acquire 50% of the forging stake now if you had 5m USD?
Why not?

blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:37:47 am

There is an awful lot to take in here and a lot of confusion. Please can I urge the TNSSE guys, or someone else suitably capable, to create a clear and accessible explanation.
https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=10828.msg208718#msg208718

lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:41:06 am

yeah, I missed a zero, do you really think you can acquire 50% of the forging stake now if you had 5m USD?
Why not?

Because NXT is not liquid for bulk purchases. You can try buying over the counter, but I don't think it's feasible either.
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:43:06 am

There is an awful lot to take in here and a lot of confusion. Please can I urge the TNSSE guys, or someone else suitably capable, to create a clear and accessible explanation.
https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=10828.msg208718#msg208718

Saw that, thanks :)
So a couple of clarifications:
1) fNXT (forgies) price may crash, because people only use it for forging. Most Nxters won't mind because their NXT were also duplicated to coinies, which they will use as they use current NXT. Hopefully they will notice very little and the changeover will be pretty uneventful.
2) New child chains (such as businesses might create for their own tokens - MS done properly) won't require end users to pay forgies. But someone has to, in order to keep the new chain secure. So essentially you have a model where a new chain is leased from the main chain, in return for regular (?) fees, dealt with centrally by the business. This is what will give fNXT value. This is the productisation of Nxt and I like it.
3) Who pays the fees for coinies to remain active?
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:48:21 am

Let's suppose I have 1000 fNXT. What can I do with them? I only can forge (which will take forever to forge anything) or sell. You see there is no buy incentive here. Hence the price will decline dramatically due to broken economical tie with main currency.
Like all cryptocurrencies now, initially the price of fNXT will be maintained by speculation about their future value, even if that exceeds the forging income they provide at present. They could also be traded back and forth to any of the native tokens. This may not be a very liquid market initially, but neither is the NXT vs fiat/BTC most of the time now. If there is increased child chain transaction activity, demand for fNXT should be expected to grow, if not, we would fail anyway.
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:50:07 am

Let's suppose I have 1000 fNXT. What can I do with them? I only can forge (which will take forever to forge anything) or sell. You see there is no buy incentive here. Hence the price will decline dramatically due to broken economical tie with main currency.
Like all cryptocurrencies now, initially the price of fNXT will be maintained by speculation about their future value, even if that exceeds the forging income they provide at present. They could also be traded back and forth to any of the native tokens. This may not be a very liquid market initially, but neither is the NXT vs fiat/BTC most of the time now. If there is increased child chain transaction activity, demand for fNXT should be expected to grow, if not, we would fail anyway.

So what if you have 100 child chains. Some are the equivalent of rimbit, whereas others have $100 million businesses built on them. Will any of the tokens be exchangeable 1:1 with fNXT?!
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allwelder

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:53:14 am

All NXT Converted to fNXT,so what will be the native token for NXT Child chain?
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Cassius

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:54:37 am

All NXT Converted to fNXT,so what will be the native token for NXT Child chain?

NXT. You get both.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:59:41 am

how are ms tokens and child chains different from each other? Functionally speaking. What benefits are there to child chains over creating ms currencies?
Transactions using MS currencies pay their fees in the native token of the child chain they are created on. Those MS currencies don't need to have a value relative to fNXT, they will not cease to exist if their value drops to zero. The MS currencies will still have use for crowdfunding, voting tokens, or just game money.

A child chain has all transaction fees paid in its own token, and this token can be used for any transaction types enabled on it, asset trading, DGS purchases, anything that NXT is used now for. MS currencies can't do that.

Quote
Since each child chain will inherit the same properties as the current main nxt system, does this mean that each new child chain becomes a dependent sub-economy, but essentially just a clone of the original nxt design?

From what I now gather, this will allow for multiple public and private blockchains ecosystems to run simultaneously under one bucket. How does this benefit the creators of these side chains? Why would they choose to create a nxt side chain instead of just a clone?
They get the benefit of security provided by all nodes that run the Nxt platform, and validate all transactions. They don't need to keep forging and generate blocks all the time. They get the ability to prune old transactions, without sacrificing security. And the ability for trading to fNXT, to other child chain tokens, and to assets on other child chains if allowed.
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allwelder

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:59:53 am

All NXT Converted to fNXT,so what will be the native token for NXT Child chain?

NXT. You get both.
Okay.
Seems Child Chain much like MS based on current NXT Main currency Chain. :(
Things become more complicated.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 10:04:39 am by allwelder »
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icoin

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 10:01:26 am

Great initiative.
Does the child chain have flexibility?
For example, does a child chain would be flexible enough to implement quantum resistant crypto for its child blocks, or implement smart contracts? Etc etc..

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 10:04:04 am

I am still trying to determine what role the native NXT coins role will be...

 - No longer plays a role in forging
 - Child chains are able to use all the features of NXT
 - Child chains will move onto centralized exchanges and will have BTC pairings. Furthermore superBTC will be able to trade with child chains.
 - Now has to compete with fNXT. Some view this as doubling the supply of NXT.

It seems clear that fNXT has a role (while i think this might fail at least it has a clear role), but what is NXT's?

Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 10:15:47 am

So what if you have 100 child chains. Some are the equivalent of rimbit, whereas others have $100 million businesses built on them. Will any of the tokens be exchangeable 1:1 with fNXT?!
No, there will be no such peg, even for NXT itself. Only at the hard fork block we start at 1:1 distribution, but when a ChildcoinBlock creator creates a block, he can offer more, or less, fNXT, to the forger, if the market value of the tokens included as fees has increased or decreased.

A business like Rimbit can decide to subsidize their transactions and keep paying fees in fNXT even if the real market value of the Rimbit included is not equivalent, and this should be fine, because the forgers do get their fNXT. But such business must have a way of making money somehow, to be able to buy those fNXTs, if they want to continue this indefinitely.

How a new child chain will be bootstrapped, what starting point for the value of its token to use, I don't know yet. It could be that first just the token is created and trading to/from fNXT allowed, to establish some baseline market value. And if this is manipulated by the chain creator, it is still ok, they cannot continue the manipulation without running out of funds at some point. The initial cost of creating a child chain should be very high, to protect against abuse.
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allwelder

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 10:17:48 am

All NXT Converted to fNXT,so what will be the native token for NXT Child chain?

NXT. You get both.
Ha,seems we are inflating the whole system.Price will surely decline.
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