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Author Topic: Nxt 2.0 design  (Read 103752 times)

Riker

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 07:37:35 am

NXT can do that now so why complicate things even more? What is the extra utility gained?
Proper implementation of Monetary System and almost zero blockchain bloat.

I'm not talking about the MS/chain tech, I'm talking about splitting the tokens, I did not really see an explanation for it.

It allows you to prune the existing NXT blockchain to the bare minimum.
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Sabertooth

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 07:47:29 am

NXT can do that now so why complicate things even more? What is the extra utility gained?
Proper implementation of Monetary System and almost zero blockchain bloat.

I'm not talking about the MS/chain tech, I'm talking about splitting the tokens, I did not really see an explanation for it.



It allows you to prune the existing NXT blockchain to the bare minimum.

So NXT gets relegated to a MS like currency then?

Jetboy

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 07:48:37 am


It allows you to prune the existing NXT blockchain to the bare minimum.

All this pruning madness is not really as forward looking as you think. Nodes are nodes, they can retain the full history of a bloated blockchain. As previously mentioned, you don't need any data leak into the mother, just pure validation and hashes, but the children probably don't need it [Pruning], especially since there are so many of them which probably distributes the data more over several chains.

Who says in future applications that clients need a full chain to work properly in this model? As long as you have a thriving node community, clients don't really need to know 99.999999% of the big picture, just the stuff that concerns the client.

Destroying data is not a liable way in a system based on saving data. Just hoping someone will actually save it all is gambling.

Riker

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 07:56:41 am

NXT can do that now so why complicate things even more? What is the extra utility gained?
Proper implementation of Monetary System and almost zero blockchain bloat.

I'm not talking about the MS/chain tech, I'm talking about splitting the tokens, I did not really see an explanation for it.



It allows you to prune the existing NXT blockchain to the bare minimum.

So NXT gets relegated to a MS like currency then?

No, the utility of the NXT chain itself does not change. The NXT chain no longer needs to forge and therefore can be pruned. The goal is that all applications built on top of NXT will continue to function with minimal changes.
Think about it, we'll no longer need to store forever every message sent between two random users, every asset trade, every dividend payment of 0.002 NXT. We just save the state and proof that it is correct.
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Sabertooth

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 08:00:40 am

NXT can do that now so why complicate things even more? What is the extra utility gained?
Proper implementation of Monetary System and almost zero blockchain bloat.

I'm not talking about the MS/chain tech, I'm talking about splitting the tokens, I did not really see an explanation for it.



It allows you to prune the existing NXT blockchain to the bare minimum.

So NXT gets relegated to a MS like currency then?

No, the utility of the NXT chain itself does not change. The NXT chain no longer needs to forge and therefore can be pruned. The goal is that all applications built on top of NXT will continue to function with minimal changes.
Think about it, we'll no longer need to store forever every message sent between two random users, every asset trade, every dividend payment of 0.002 NXT. We just save the state and proof that it is correct.

So trading against assets and div payments is all that is left for NXT then?

Riker

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 08:04:38 am

... the utility of the NXT chain itself does not change ...

So trading against assets and div payments is all that is left for NXT then?

Not following you ... you can still use the whole NXT ecosystem as is just on a child chain.
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 08:12:23 am

No, the utility of the NXT chain itself does not change. The NXT chain no longer needs to forge and therefore can be pruned. The goal is that all applications built on top of NXT will continue to function with minimal changes.
Think about it, we'll no longer need to store forever every message sent between two random users, every asset trade, every dividend payment of 0.002 NXT. We just save the state and proof that it is correct.
You should not and cannot splitting the forging NXT and main NXT. Forging must be tied to economical activity of the coin. Maybe you will have not so effective prunning but you will destroy the coin otherwise.

HCLivess

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 08:25:50 am

What a beautiful design, sidechains, prunning, slalability. I like it a lot.
Producing, Lending, Mining, Trading, Forging, Staking

Riker

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 08:29:35 am

Forging must be tied to economical activity of the coin.

It is still tied, if you like your child chain to work, you need to pay forging fees so that forgers include your ChildChainBlock transactions in fNXt blocks. In return you'll receive the fees in the native token of the child chain. So there is economical tie just indirect one.
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superresistant

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 08:31:25 am

 
Impressive changes and very interesting new features. Nxt stand for innovation, good work.

blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 08:36:27 am

Forging must be tied to economical activity of the coin.

It is still tied, if you like your child chain to work, you need to pay forging fees so that forgers include your ChildChainBlock transactions in fNXt blocks. In return you'll receive the fees in the native token of the child chain. So there is economical tie just indirect one.
How much such blocks do we expect after the fork? Let's suppose I have 1000 fNXT. What can I do with them? I only can forge (which will take forever to forge anything) or sell. You see there is no buy incentive here. Hence the price will decline dramatically due to broken economical tie with main currency.

Riker

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 08:50:09 am

Forging must be tied to economical activity of the coin.

It is still tied, if you like your child chain to work, you need to pay forging fees so that forgers include your ChildChainBlock transactions in fNXt blocks. In return you'll receive the fees in the native token of the child chain. So there is economical tie just indirect one.
How much such blocks do we expect after the fork? Let's suppose I have 1000 fNXT. What can I do with them? I only can forge (which will take forever to forge anything) or sell. You see there is no buy incentive here. Hence the price will decline dramatically due to broken economical tie with main currency.

We are developing blockchain technology which can scale to global scale. If people won't be willing to invest 10$ a month to support it by forging, so be it.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:00:16 am

Which transaction types will be preserved on the forging chain?
Sending fNXT from one account to another, leasing, and trading fNXT to any of the native child chain tokens. These transactions will have higher fees compared to transactions on child chains, as they will need to be stored permanently. No messages, no assets, nothing else. That also means no phasing, no account control, no shuffling, etc.
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What sort of mechanism can be implemented to exchange NXT to fNXT and back?
Something similar to the current asset exchange ask/bid orders.
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:04:03 am

Forging must be tied to economical activity of the coin.

It is still tied, if you like your child chain to work, you need to pay forging fees so that forgers include your ChildChainBlock transactions in fNXt blocks. In return you'll receive the fees in the native token of the child chain. So there is economical tie just indirect one.
How much such blocks do we expect after the fork? Let's suppose I have 1000 fNXT. What can I do with them? I only can forge (which will take forever to forge anything) or sell. You see there is no buy incentive here. Hence the price will decline dramatically due to broken economical tie with main currency.

We are developing blockchain technology which can scale to global scale. If people won't be willing to invest 10$ a month to support it by forging, so be it.
I am talking about the price of fNXT token. Which will decline dramatically and lead to the lower security of the blockchain and economical fallout on NXT ecosystem. And you are replying with 10 USD donations? How is it related?

Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:04:37 am

Have you considered cross chaining? Since there is a mother chain for forgning, will there be a bridge chain as well?
What does that mean?
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I assume some children will be public while others will be permissioned.
The opposite of public is private. No, there can be no private (in the sense of not publicly readable) chains.
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Would it be sensible to keep the tx in the mother chained pruned from the start? What I mean is that you could still forge a childs' records but not leak any data at all from the child, i.e records in the mother will only be a signed hash which can be used to validate the history of the child.
No. Every node must validate everything, and therefore have access to it, before it gets pruned. You cannot validate whether a hash is correct without having seen the data, and having verified that the data is correct based on the current child chain state. If only a selected handful of nodes have access to the data and others don't, the network will break.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:05:35 am

If I understand correctly, the official NXT child chain will be the only chain who will always be process no matter the market dept of the fNXT/NXT? Because, I understand that some child chain could stop functionning if this dept is empty, and of course this should never happen on the official NXT child chain.
There will be no such hardcoded restriction. The "official" NXT child chain will stop functioning if it does not pay its fees.
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Riker

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:11:24 am

I am talking about the price of fNXT token. Which will decline dramatically and lead to the lower security of the blockchain and economical fallout on NXT ecosystem. And you are replying with 10 USD donations? How is it related?

Its quite possible that fNXT + child NXT would have lower value than NXT 1.x, can you really tell what would be the prices of these tokens a year from now or base any real decisions on this ? The only risk I see to the network is that someone will purchase large amount of fNXT in order to attack the blockchain but this by itself would increase the value of fNXT and make it more difficult to attack the network.
My argument is that even if forging is not profitable, and I agree it might not be profitable, people will still forge in order to maintain the child chains which has utility and scale.
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:22:06 am

I am talking about the price of fNXT token. Which will decline dramatically and lead to the lower security of the blockchain and economical fallout on NXT ecosystem. And you are replying with 10 USD donations? How is it related?

Its quite possible that fNXT + child NXT would have lower value than NXT 1.x, can you really tell what would be the prices of these tokens a year from now or base any real decisions on this ? The only risk I see to the network is that someone will purchase large amount of fNXT in order to attack the blockchain but this by itself would increase the value of fNXT and make it more difficult to attack the network.
My argument is that even if forging is not profitable, and I agree it might not be profitable, people will still forge in order to maintain the child chains which has utility and scale.
Let's suppose fNXT price will be 1/10 of NXT price. Now we have half of the total NXT forging: 500 000 000 NXT. With lower price I suppose we will have less people forging so we will have say 300 000 000 fNXT forging. It will be equal to 30  million NXT or 300000 USD. To have 50% stake you will need 15 million NXT or 150000 USD. Not a small amount but remember that with this amount you can attack fNXT and get a much bigger main NXT control. So with 150k USD you will be able to destroy 8m USD economics and probably repay your expences back.

Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:27:30 am

Can forgers choose individually which ChildchainBlocks they want to forge?
They should be able to, just like now they can select which transactions to include.
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Let’s say a business creates a sidechain, offers a service, charges users in a native token (would this be an MS currency?) but the business also runs its own forging node. Could this business make its forging node include all childchain transactions from its own childchain? Or does the childchain need consensus among all fNXT to get transactions processed?
The only consensus needed should be that the fee in fNXT received by the block forger (and paid by the ChildchainBlock creator) is at least the minimum required based on the specific transaction types and sizes. When the forger and the creator are the same, we have the same situation as now, that a forger can include his own transactions for free. We may have to adopt the same protection measures, spread back the fees to the previous few forgers.

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The business might want to spend money earned via the childchain service to cover costs for its own forging node, even if forging the childchainblocks earns them no fNXT. If consensus among all forging nodes are needed to get transactions processed, could the business itself pay extra rewards to the forgers who forge their (fee-less) ChildchainBlocks? In other words; Charging users for transactions is not the only way to make money. Is there a way for a business to cover transaction costs for their users?
I guess yes, the consensus required is that the forger has received the fee in fNXT. Whether the creator of the child chain block got anything in return, doesn't matter. If such a business is willing to pay fees in fNXT to whomever happens to forge the next block, sufficient to cover the minimum, the actual child chain transactions can be submitted with 0 native token fees.

I was thinking though that the client (the UI) should suggest a fee, in the native token, based on the current market rate as determined by recent trade history for that token vs fNXT. Obviously in this case it will not work, need to do some special case about it.
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lurker10

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
February 09, 2016, 09:28:29 am

Let's suppose fNXT price will be 1/10 of NXT price. Now we have half of the total NXT forging: 500 000 000 NXT. With lower price I suppose we will have less people forging so we will have say 300 000 000 fNXT forging. It will be equal to 30  million NXT or 300000 USD. To have 50% stake you will need 15 million NXT or 150000 USD. Not a small amount but remember that with this amount you can attack fNXT and get a much bigger main NXT control. So with 150k USD you will be able to destroy 8m USD economics and probably repay your expences back.

By this logic you only need 250k USD now to gain 50% of the forging stake. Try acquiring this much stake for 250k USD.

Still, you're right in that the value of fNXT must be maintained at a decent level to make it expensive to attack the network. The fees that Childchain creator pays to the forgers should be high enough, looking at the current fees after 2+ years of network running can we economically quantify what these fees should be?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 09:32:16 am by lurker10 »
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