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Latest Nxt Client 1.11.4 - NEW RELEASE: Ardor 2.0.2e TestNet IS LAUNCHED!

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Author Topic: Nxt 2.0 design  (Read 92806 times)

wolffang

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
May 03, 2016, 12:16:04 pm

How is Nxt 2.0 development going?

When can we market the hell out of it? (Q4?)

Already have ideas of the supply? Same as NXT or less than 1 billion tokens?

Jean-Luc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
May 04, 2016, 03:56:18 pm

I am working on it, nothing new to say about 2.0 at this point.
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MrCluster87

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
May 05, 2016, 04:52:25 pm

Just wow: https://youtu.be/vPMQlFsKQnU?t=12m25s

Scalability is the new word, beside blockchain and decentralized

HCLivess

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
May 06, 2016, 11:15:52 am

Just wow: https://youtu.be/vPMQlFsKQnU?t=12m25s

Scalability is the new word, beside blockchain and decentralized

also: agile
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Brangdon

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
May 16, 2016, 11:01:49 am

Any thoughts on Bitcoin's Lightning Network?

The Lightning Network is a way of setting up a payment channel on the Bitcoin block-chain. A payment channel is essentially a 2-signature address. Once set up, two parties can send each other funds by sending a transaction to the other party that gives the other party permission to draw the funds from the address. This transaction is signed by the first party, but doesn't normally get added to the block-chain. It is a kind of cryptographically enforced, trust-free IOU. Either of the parties can redeem their latest IOU by broadcasting it to the block-chain; this closes the payment channel. Thus only the first and last transaction of the payment channel gets into the block-chain. Bitcoin shifts from being a transactional network to a settlement network.

This also means that payments get sent at internet speed, without needing to wait 10 minutes or 60 minutes for confirmations. Hence the "lightning" part of the name. The "network" part comes from them chaining payment channels together. If A wants to pay D, instead of creating a payment channel directly with D, they can find a route though the channels they already have: A pays B, who pays C, who pays D, all though existing payment channels and all off-chain. (We might imaging B and C are playing the roles of clearing banks in this scenario.)

The Lightning Network seems to be Bitcoin's solution for scalability. How do you think it compares to Nxt 2.0? It seems to me that Bitcoin will at least end up with faster transactions than Nxt 2.0. I'm not sure whether it will have less bloat, but it is rather taking the wind out of our sails on that score too. Should we be worried? Should we be pursuing a design like that instead of 2.0?
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nzminer

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
May 17, 2016, 07:55:16 am

I dont have any issue with it, i think it will make it more attractive to those wanting to forge NXT also. :)
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bob_ggg

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
May 17, 2016, 02:38:22 pm

Any thoughts on Bitcoin's Lightning Network?
 Should we be worried? Should we be pursuing a design like that instead of 2.0?
My understanding from reading the whitepaper is that it is an excellent solution for a PAYMENT network where it is possible to settle a sequence of payments through a parallel network of gateways. IMHO, this solution does not cover the use of the blockchain for cases that are not related to payments (Factom, etc).
In short, I think that it would be a great addition to the planned Nxt 2.0 scheme.
On the other hand, it would be very interesting to understand how far we are, server side, to support this scheme, leaving a future implementation of the network in NXT to a different time, when all the requirements are fully understood.

Nextshares

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
June 12, 2016, 02:32:52 pm

How is the fee charge, main chain FXT, child chain FNX, if A send FNX to B, then it will take 1 FNX fee, at the same block, C send FNX to D, also charge C 1 FNX fee, from main chain it will takes 1 FXT fee for both transition, so how to convert FNX fee to FXT fee by SW?

Nextshares

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
June 13, 2016, 01:39:26 pm

How is the fee charge, main chain FXT, child chain FNX, if A send FNX to B, then it will take 1 FNX fee, at the same block, C send FNX to D, also charge C 1 FNX fee, from main chain it will takes 1 FXT fee for both transition, so how to convert FNX fee to FXT fee by SW?

Anyone know this?

Riker

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
June 13, 2016, 02:27:39 pm

How is the fee charge, main chain FXT, child chain FNX, if A send FNX to B, then it will take 1 FNX fee, at the same block, C send FNX to D, also charge C 1 FNX fee, from main chain it will takes 1 FXT fee for both transition, so how to convert FNX fee to FXT fee by SW?

Anyone know this?

Answered here https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/create-android-app-base-on-nxt/msg219058/#msg219058
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Brangdon

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
June 13, 2016, 02:30:19 pm

How is the fee charge, main chain FXT, child chain FNX, if A send FNX to B, then it will take 1 FNX fee, at the same block, C send FNX to D, also charge C 1 FNX fee, from main chain it will takes 1 FXT fee for both transition, so how to convert FNX fee to FXT fee by SW?
As I understand it, FXT and FNX will be tradeable much as MS currencies are now. Probably most ChildBlocks will be created by the forging nodes themselves, so they'll collect FNX fees for the child transactions, pay themselves 1 FXT for the ChildBlock, and collect more FXT fees if there are any other forging chain transactions. Forging a block will increase their balances in both coins, and not cost them in either.

If someone wants to bundle-up child chain transactions and submit them to forgers for inclusion, they collect the FNX fees and have to pay FXT fees. Presumably they'll have to buy the FXT on the open market to do that, and they can sell the FNX to raise the money. Although this buying and selling could be automated (presumably in the client, as it doesn't need to be in core), I doubt it's an urgent feature as the bundlers can just maintain a large working balance and buy and sell manually.
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Nextshares

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
June 13, 2016, 02:47:50 pm

Thanks Riker and Brangdon, seems that get the idea of concept.

Brangdon

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
September 27, 2016, 08:08:00 pm

Can someone spell out how cross-child-chain transactions will work? Do such transactions appear on both chains? Which chain's token is used to pay transaction fees?

Suppose I want to trade ARDOR for IGNIS. As I understand it, any transaction that changes an account's ARDOR balance has to be stored on the Ardor chain, and cannot be pruned, for security reasons. Am I right in thinking this means even though I am using IGNIS to buy the tokens, I also need some ARDOR to pay for transaction fees?

If I forge an Ardor block, and include some Ignis transactions that I bundled myself, and therefore gained some IGNIS fees, can I sell those fees for Ardor in the same block?

(These questions arose from the discussion in Function of Ardor token thread.)
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
September 27, 2016, 09:19:26 pm

Suppose I want to trade ARDOR for IGNIS. As I understand it, any transaction that changes an account's ARDOR balance has to be stored on the Ardor chain, and cannot be pruned, for security reasons. Am I right in thinking this means even though I am using IGNIS to buy the tokens, I also need some ARDOR to pay for transaction fees?
As far as I know the only way to sell ARDOR token is to send it manually to the buyer since there is no AE on Ardor chain. In your case as a buyer you need to pay IGNIS fee and as a seller you need to pay ARDOR fee.

If I forge an Ardor block, and include some Ignis transactions that I bundled myself, and therefore gained some IGNIS fees, can I sell those fees for Ardor in the same block?
You may be able to send IGNIS in the same block (I doubt it - try sending NXT you received in the same block) but you will likely not get ARDOR in the same block since it requires great coordination with the seller.

Brangdon

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
September 28, 2016, 09:45:33 pm

Suppose I want to trade ARDOR for IGNIS. As I understand it, any transaction that changes an account's ARDOR balance has to be stored on the Ardor chain, and cannot be pruned, for security reasons. Am I right in thinking this means even though I am using IGNIS to buy the tokens, I also need some ARDOR to pay for transaction fees?
As far as I know the only way to sell ARDOR token is to send it manually to the buyer since there is no AE on Ardor chain. In your case as a buyer you need to pay IGNIS fee and as a seller you need to pay ARDOR fee.
There will be an Asset Exchange on the Ignis child-chain. I would hope transactions between child-chains would be possible. They raise the same issues as transactions between child-chains and the Ardor chain. Maybe there is only one AE across all the child-chains, and offers to sell tokens can only be issued on that token's chain, so the fees would always be in the same token.

I do hope it is possible to trade Ardor in a simple and trust-free way. I was thinking the buy and sell orders would be issued and matched on the Ignis child-chain, and then for the trade to generate an extra transaction on the Ardor chain to represent the change in Ardor balance. The transactions would be linked so they go through atomically (ie, if one fails they both fail).

I'm speculating. Has this part of the system been designed yet?

Quote
If I forge an Ardor block, and include some Ignis transactions that I bundled myself, and therefore gained some IGNIS fees, can I sell those fees for Ardor in the same block?
You may be able to send IGNIS in the same block (I doubt it - try sending NXT you received in the same block) but you will likely not get ARDOR in the same block since it requires great coordination with the seller.
The Nxt situation isn't very comparable. In order to forge you need at least 1000 NXT. In order to try what you suggest, I'd need a much larger balance in order to forge in reasonable time, and then try to transfer that amount + the fees received in that block. I'm not going to bother. Selling/sending IGNIS would not affect the balance needed for forging Ardor, so it's a very different situation.

I guess it doesn't much matter, though. You could keep a float of the child-chain tokens, and sell/send some of those old tokens while replenishing them with an equal number of new ones from fees. The value of the float could be small. (I'm exploring how much faith a forger needs to have in a child-chain in order to bundle it themselves rather than accept Ardor fees from a third-party bundler.)
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blackyblack1

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
September 29, 2016, 06:12:38 am

I would hope transactions between child-chains would be possible.
Doubt it.

Maybe there is only one AE across all the child-chains
Well the asset issuance is global but each childchain has own AE.

and offers to sell tokens can only be issued on that token's chain, so the fees would always be in the same token.
Asset issuance is global for all childchains. But the fees for trading the asset will be in the childchain tokens depending on the childchain you've choosen to trade the asset.

I do hope it is possible to trade Ardor in a simple and trust-free way.
There are plans to do it. I remember some kind of Ardor-only exchange was mentioned.

I'm speculating. Has this part of the system been designed yet?
Doubt it.

I'm exploring how much faith a forger needs to have in a child-chain in order to bundle it themselves rather than accept Ardor fees from a third-party bundler.
Forger has those fees for free. He does not need to organize any cash flow or calculate Ardor exchange rates. He is simply getting chilchain fees for doing nothing.

abctc

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Re: Nxt 2.0 design
September 29, 2016, 07:09:48 am

I do hope it is possible to trade Ardor in a simple and trust-free way.
There are plans to do it. I remember some kind of Ardor-only exchange was mentioned.
- yes:
What sort of mechanism can be implemented to exchange NXT to fNXT and back?
Something similar to the current asset exchange ask/bid orders.
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Is ardor develop on schedule?
November 22, 2016, 01:14:42 pm

I remember the roadmap plan lunch ardor testnet at 2017-01-01,it's less than 40 days now,just wonder if develop on schedule?
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wolffang

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Re: Is ardor develop on schedule?
November 22, 2016, 01:26:38 pm

I remember the roadmap plan lunch ardor testnet at 2017-01-01,it's less than 40 days now,just wonder if develop on schedule?

Hi!,
Roadmap says Q1 2017 :)

Development is on schedule is what the CoreDevs recently said on slack.

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