elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
NXT 2.0 what is it? singapore
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Latest Stable Nxt Client: Nxt 1.12.1 Upgrade before block 2870000 is mandatory!

Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: NXT 2.0 what is it?  (Read 8625 times)

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2016, 07:45:27 pm »

Quote
On the other hand, this motive for having sidechains isn't convincing. There is no reason to believe that this feature will become popular, and if it does, it doesn't lead to more demand for NXT tokens, or only in small amounts. Also Bitcoin-style sidechains would accomplish the goal better.

In case blockchain usage explodes as expected and we provide a simple and scalable solution, we can have 1000's of side chains running concurrently.
As long as child chains pay enough fees they will create more demand for NXT. 

Quote
But if the main goal is scalability, and these features are a side effect, then it sounds much better.

I agree that scalability is one of the main goals.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

blackyblack1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +165/-82
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1764
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2016, 07:45:29 pm »

Also Bitcoin-style sidechains would accomplish the goal better.
This is exactly why I have created this thread. Just let us know how bitcoin style is better and why and we will have a chance to make NXT sidechains better.
Logged

Dr.Beer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +24/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 154
  • NXT-FK5G-7QST-A4U5-DXY5G
    • View Profile
    • nxt4all.co.in
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2016, 07:45:41 pm »

Perhaps it doesn't belong to NXT 2.0, but me very much interests - implementation of AT will be still in 1.x or in 2.x to expect? Or generally not to expect?
Logged
Wiki NXT/NXT NRS translator (russian,ukrainian)

remix

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2016, 07:56:23 pm »

Also Bitcoin-style sidechains would accomplish the goal better.
This is exactly why I have created this thread. Just let us know how bitcoin style is better and why and we will have a chance to make NXT sidechains better.

I'm not an expert, but here is the concept: a Bitcoin sidechain is basically a way to move bitcoins from one chain to another. The chains work independently. One chain can even die without affecting others (coins in that chain would be lost). This allows for any kind of experimentation, but without creating new altcoins.
Logged

Riker

  • Core Dev
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +439/-42
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1796
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2016, 09:03:16 pm »

Also Bitcoin-style sidechains would accomplish the goal better.
This is exactly why I have created this thread. Just let us know how bitcoin style is better and why and we will have a chance to make NXT sidechains better.

I'm not an expert, but here is the concept: a Bitcoin sidechain is basically a way to move bitcoins from one chain to another. The chains work independently. One chain can even die without affecting others (coins in that chain would be lost). This allows for any kind of experimentation, but without creating new altcoins.

NXT child chains can also die without affecting anything. Once the issuer account no longer pays for the transaction fees required for the child chains maintenance (think about a child chain snapshot transaction written into the BCNext chain every 24 hours), nodes will no longer accept the child chain transactions. If NXT implements the side chains idea of locking funds when issuing a child chain, and many child chains are issued, this will reduce the forging power and thus reduce the security of the network same problem that we have we reservable currency.
Logged
NXT Core Dev
Account: NXT-HBFW-X8TE-WXPW-DZFAG
Public Key: D8311651 Key fingerprint: 0560 443B 035C EE08 0EC0  D2DD 275E 94A7 D831 1651

remix

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2016, 10:05:55 pm »

Quote
NXT child chains can also die without affecting anything.

Ok. My main point still was about the method that creates most demand for NXT tokens.

But if one of the main goals is scalability, that creates potential demand too.

Quote
If NXT implements the side chains idea of locking funds when issuing a child chain, and many child chains are issued, this will reduce the forging power and thus reduce the security of the network same problem that we have we reservable currency.

I don't know how it would play out. If somebody creates a better altchain, then most NXT would probably move to that chain. At that point it wouldn't matter what happens to the original chain.
Logged

Brangdon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +229/-25
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1389
  • Quality is addictive.
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2016, 01:56:34 pm »

Those prunable sidechains will not be an optional addition, every blockchain will be a sidechain.
By "not optional", do you mean every White Label chain will be a sidechain of the BCNext chain, and everyone who uses one will also have to run a BCNext node? Or do you mean that everyone who runs a BCNext node will also have to run all the sidechains? Or something else?

Edit: ah; you may also mean every child chain will be able to exchange coins with the BCNext chain.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 02:05:22 pm by Brangdon »
Logged

Brangdon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +229/-25
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1389
  • Quality is addictive.
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2016, 02:08:04 pm »

On the other hand, this motive for having sidechains isn't convincing. There is no reason to believe that this feature will become popular, and if it does, it doesn't lead to more demand for NXT tokens, or only in small amounts. Also Bitcoin-style sidechains would accomplish the goal better.
Well, some of this may depend on your philosophical goals. Do you want to use NXT to get rich personally? Or do you want to bring the benefits of cryptocurrencies to the masses? It sounds like child chains will be a trade-off between these goals.
Logged

petko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +24/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
    • View Profile
    • My blog
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2016, 09:49:19 am »

Well, some of this may depend on your philosophical goals. Do you want to use NXT to get rich personally? Or do you want to bring the benefits of cryptocurrencies to the masses? It sounds like child chains will be a trade-off between these goals.
I disagree there is a trade-off. Giving something valuable to others is a pre-requirement to getting rich. (In fact, not exactly a pre-requirement, but the only ethical way to do it. Unfortunately, there are other ways to get rich - like robbing people).

I'm not an expert, but here is the concept: a Bitcoin sidechain is basically a way to move bitcoins from one chain to another. The chains work independently. One chain can even die without affecting others (coins in that chain would be lost). This allows for any kind of experimentation, but without creating new altcoins.
I guess this is the Bitcion sidechains paper you reference? The authors do not disallow creating new altcoins - see section 5.1.

The possibility to "peg" the sidechain token to the parent token is indeed useful feature. But I don't think this can be enforced. Even if we enforce locking some amount of the parent token, how much is the minimum? If I want to create an altcoin without pegging it, I will lock the minimum parent tokens and this way I get almost unpegged altcoin.

So, even though pegging will be useful for the credibility of the sidechain token, I think the most important feature to start with is a trustless exchange between the chains. Or at least between parent chain and child chains. This should be relatively easy since the nodes that verify the child chain anyways needs to verify the parent for the pruning to work.
Logged

Brangdon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +229/-25
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1389
  • Quality is addictive.
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2016, 01:13:48 pm »

Well, some of this may depend on your philosophical goals. Do you want to use NXT to get rich personally? Or do you want to bring the benefits of cryptocurrencies to the masses? It sounds like child chains will be a trade-off between these goals.
I disagree there is a trade-off. Giving something valuable to others is a pre-requirement to getting rich. (In fact, not exactly a pre-requirement, but the only ethical way to do it. Unfortunately, there are other ways to get rich - like robbing people).
You can do both at the same time, but some ways of doing the latter former don't help the former. It may be that the best way to bring cryptocurrencies to the masses is to abandon Nxt and work on clones instead. To me it sounds like child chains are trying to give the benefits of that - such as, a clean start, no legacy whales, and choice over features - without abandoning the original BCNext blockchain.
Logged

remix

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2016, 02:42:53 pm »

Quote
I guess this is the Bitcion sidechains paper you reference? The authors do not disallow creating new altcoins - see section 5.1.

That may be, but it is not the original/main idea.

Quote
The possibility to "peg" the sidechain token to the parent token is indeed useful feature. But I don't think this can be enforced.

In a Bitcoin sidechain it does not need enforcing, it is just a consequence of the alternate chain having the same currency.

Quote
To me it sounds like child chains are trying to give the benefits of that - such as, a clean start, no legacy whales, and choice over features - without abandoning the original BCNext blockchain.

Jean-Luc's message seems to say something different. I read that as saying the main goal is improved scalability for the NXT token.
Logged

Brangdon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +229/-25
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1389
  • Quality is addictive.
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2016, 03:48:22 pm »

Quote
To me it sounds like child chains are trying to give the benefits of that - such as, a clean start, no legacy whales, and choice over features - without abandoning the original BCNext blockchain.

Jean-Luc's message seems to say something different. I read that as saying the main goal is improved scalability for the NXT token.
There are multiple goals. If you follow the thread back (admittedly difficult because your hand-edited quotes don't include links to the post they are quoting, like the auto-generated ones do), you'll see I was discussing goals that Riker had, in #13.
Logged

petko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +24/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 100
    • View Profile
    • My blog
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2016, 12:19:13 pm »

That may be, but it is not the original/main idea.

Please link to the original idea if possible. (Here is another paper on the topic by Peter Todd).

In a Bitcoin sidechain it does not need enforcing, it is just a consequence of the alternate chain having the same currency.

Actually, in the previous paper I linked to, the two-way peg practically makes the two chains have same currency (since anyone in any time can move tokens between the chains). I was wrong in my previous comment - if two-way pegged token is the only option for the side-chain, this indeed disallows creation of altcoins.

Unfortunately in both papers PoW is excessively used and I cannot think of a mechanism to support same currency on different chains with PoS.

You can do both at the same time, but some ways of doing the latter former don't help the former. It may be that the best way to bring cryptocurrencies to the masses is to abandon Nxt and work on clones instead. To me it sounds like child chains are trying to give the benefits of that - such as, a clean start, no legacy whales, and choice over features - without abandoning the original BCNext blockchain.

I'm not sure that altcoins help adoption. On one hand separate tokens bring incentivisation to create sidechains and competition between the token creators. On the other hand, coins appearing and disappearing every day creates uncertainty for the future. Anyways, I think sidechains are discussed for their technical values so far.
Logged

remix

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Karma: +18/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: NXT 2.0 what is it?
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2016, 01:04:07 pm »

Please link to the original idea if possible. (Here is another paper on the topic by Peter Todd).

I believe the original idea (or goal) is this:

"One of the things that struck me about that interview was the concerns held by Dr. Back over digital scarcity, the idea that other cryptocurrencies dilute the value of bitcoin by offering the same services but expanding the supply of tokens able to perform that service."

From this fairly old interview:

https://letstalkbitcoin.com/e99-sidechain-innovation/

Unfortunately in both papers PoW is excessively used and I cannot think of a mechanism to support same currency on different chains with PoS.

Ok, I wasn't aware in my previous comments about the difficulties of implementing it with POS.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

elective-stereophonic
elective-stereophonic
assembly
assembly