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New fees and size limits in 1.7
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Jean-Luc

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New fees and size limits in 1.7
« on: November 11, 2015, 05:15:57 pm »

I would like to bring to everyone's attention the important changes regarding the new minimum fees and size limits planned to take effect at the 1.7 hardfork, as they will very likely affect all clients that have hardcoded minimum fees or use permanent messages. See the current 1.7 changelog for details: https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/current-1-7-changelog

There are several reasons for these changes. Most importantly, with the improved support for prunable data introduced in 1.6, there is no excuse to let users continue using permanent instead of prunable messages. To encourage a switch to prunable, the fees for permanent blockchain space must be increased, and the maximum message size limit reduced. We also want to make fees proportionate to the actual blockchain space consumed, charging a fixed fee per each 32 bytes, and to make that consistent for all transaction types which store data in the blockchain. For a few transaction types (aliases, account info, DGS goods) it still makes sense to allow a higher data size limit, for those we suggest keeping the current 1000 bytes limit, but setting the per byte fee to twice that for messages, to prevent using such transactions instead of messages. For some high fee transaction types, we have also added throttling and/or back fees spreading, to prevent spam or abuse by the forgers.

It is good to have a free permanent message allowance for every transaction, and we have tentatively set this to 32 bytes. There is a dependency between the various fees however, because if the cost per 32 bytes after the free allowance is too high, this would create a loophole for abuse, with users splitting messages into multiple transactions to fit within the free limit. To prevent such abuse, the base transaction fee (currently 1 NXT) must be roughly the same as the cost per 32 bytes.

We plan to create a poll to allow NXT holders to vote on what the base fee should be, with possible values of 1, 2, 3 or 4 NXT. Then the fees for permanent blockchain storage space (cost per 32 bytes), and all other fees, will be determined relative to this base fee, e.g. if it ends up being set to 2 NXT instead of the current 1 NXT default, all fee values proposed in the 1.7 changelog will be scaled by 2x.
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Sebastien256

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 05:29:35 pm »

Hi Jl,

it would be good to put all your posts related to core devs in a specific section of the forum, otherwise posts in genral discussion will get burried and many people won't see them. This is obiously not the intented goal.
Seb
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cc001

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2015, 05:43:46 pm »

We plan to create a poll to allow NXT holders to vote on what the base fee should be, with possible values of 1, 2, 3 or 4 NXT

Will it be possible to adapt this base fee to current market situation/NXT-price in the future? Could it be done automatically, based on some formula? Will it be also possible to change this base fee to fractions of one, for example 0.5 NXT or 0.01 NXT? IfWhen Nxt goes to the moon, 1 NXT fee might be too much.
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bcdev

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2015, 06:00:12 pm »

We plan to create a poll to allow NXT holders to vote on what the base fee should be, with possible values of 1, 2, 3 or 4 NXT
Why < 1 aren't in the range of possible values? My suggestion is to add 0.25, 0.5 and 0.75.

And please make the vote multiple choice. Single choice votes force you to vote for the lesser evil.
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Seccour

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2015, 06:04:46 pm »

So the fee will be higher for permanent message only ?
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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2015, 06:08:29 pm »

Hi Jl,

it would be good to put all your posts related to core devs in a specific section of the forum, otherwise posts in genral discussion will get burried and many people won't see them. This is obiously not the intented goal.
Seb

I agree. Special section for Nxt special information.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 06:23:16 pm »

If the base fee stays at 1 NXT, fees will be same as now for regular payments, AE orders, and similar transactions as long as they don't include a message attachment. Fees will be calculated based on size for permanent message attachments, and for any transaction that includes some data fields that take blockchain space and could be abused instead of messages if allowed to be cheaper. This is why I am speaking of cost per byte, and have specified how this can be calculated for each of the affected transaction types.

What I have in mind is not a poll with several options, but a single option with allowed values range 1 to 4. Then the result should be the integer closer to the average of the votes, e.g if average is 1.57, round it up to 2.

We had a fee of 1 NXT when the price was 10 times higher, the market already took care of decreasing the fee. Why should we want to set it even lower? If the price goes up significantly, we will do another poll and adjust the fee. For now such adjustments will have to be done manually, and as each fee change requires a hard fork, are not practical to do more often than every 6 months, which is about how often we do hard forks now.
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crimi

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 06:37:54 pm »

i was excited to see this thread, now im not  :o give me lower than 1 nxt please
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bcdev

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 06:41:01 pm »

What I have in mind is not a poll with several options, but a single option with allowed values range 1 to 4. Then the result should be the integer closer to the average of the votes, e.g if average is 1.57, round it up to 2.
This method is biased towards middle options [2,3]. Also, if you want to vote for 2 and 1 is winning, the best option is to vote 4. Bad method IMO.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 06:51:27 pm »

So what do you suggest, 4 options with up to two choices allowed, and the option with most votes wins? If for some reason then users divide into two extreme groups, some favoring highest fee possible (forgers), some the lowest (frequent traders), one of the extremes will be chosen instead of the average which would have been more fair. Not sure what is the best way.
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Sebastien256

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 06:54:17 pm »

So what do you suggest, 4 options with up to two choices allowed, and the option with most votes wins? If for some reason then users divide into two extreme groups, some favoring highest fee possible (forgers), some the lowest (frequent traders), one of the extremes will be chosen instead of the average which would have been more fair. Not sure what is the best way.

I would do up to three polls, one between 1 nxt or 2 nxt. Then one between 2 and 3, and the last between 3 and 4.
If for any poll the lowest value win, you don't need to do the next poll.

That is the only fair method i believe.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 06:59:41 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Jean-Luc

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2015, 06:58:11 pm »

i was excited to see this thread, now im not  :o give me lower than 1 nxt please
To give you lower than 1 NXT, something must have changed in our architecture to make it possible. Has it? Not with permanent messages, but the change was to add prunable data, done in 1.5, with a lot of improvements in 1.6. And for prunable, you do have the low fee of 0.1 NXT for 1024 bytes. Start using those instead.
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XIII

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2015, 07:02:40 pm »

We plan to create a poll to allow NXT holders to vote on what the base fee should be, with possible values of 1, 2, 3 or 4 NXT
Why < 1 aren't in the range of possible values? My suggestion is to add 0.25, 0.5 and 0.75.

And please make the vote multiple choice. Single choice votes force you to vote for the lesser evil.

Yes, market has already decreased fees. But, we need to make NXT more popular. In fact this doesn't matter what we get 1 USD cent or 3 USD cents per month with this forging. So, here we have psychological problem of using 1 NXT for basical fee. It would be perfect to decrease fees at least down to 0,5 NXT - cause this will be very strong marketing step for NXT.

I may be wrong for sure, let people judge, so we need to include in poll as was pointed - 0.1, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75 NXT 
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kushti

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2015, 07:18:05 pm »

Low fees are killing forging economy and so just dangerous
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Sebastien256

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 07:25:11 pm »

Guys, in any case multiple choice with average is bad as it could be manipulate (if weight by nxt holding), because the vote are count at the finish height afaik.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2015, 07:31:17 pm »

I like the idea about a series of polls with two choices each. We do need to shorten the voting period for each poll though, at most a week each, then it may still take up to three weeks total.
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Sebastien256

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2015, 07:36:08 pm »

I like the idea about a series of polls with two choices each. We do need to shorten the voting period for each poll though, at most a week each, then it may still take up to three weeks total.

This forum need a place to post info about official Nxt poll. Note that it would be a bad idea to burry this kind of announcement in a general topic ;) ok ?
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Damelon

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2015, 07:36:33 pm »

We plan to create a poll to allow NXT holders to vote on what the base fee should be, with possible values of 1, 2, 3 or 4 NXT

Will it be possible to adapt this base fee to current market situation/NXT-price in the future? Could it be done automatically, based on some formula? Will it be also possible to change this base fee to fractions of one, for example 0.5 NXT or 0.01 NXT? IfWhen Nxt goes to the moon, 1 NXT fee might be too much.

I think we may have a communication mistake happening here

This is about base fees for messages, as far as I know, not base fees for normal transactions.

Jean-Luc, can you clarify this, please?

Edit: found it!

Quote
Fees and size limit changes

Several transaction types or attachments will have new fees and size limits, to encourage users to utilize the prunable versions when available, and to make fees proportionate to actual blockchain space consumed.

Aliases:
Base fee 2 NXT, with 2 NXT additional fee for each 32 chars of name plus URI total length, after the first 32 chars. Name and URI size limits remain at 100 and 1000 chars respectively.

Messages and EncryptedMessages (non-prunable):
Maximum length reduced to 160 bytes. 1 NXT fee for each 32 bytes after the first 32 bytes. For encrypted messages, the length is measured excluding the nonce and the 16 byte AES initialization vector.

Fees and size limit for prunable messages remain unchanged.

AccountInfo:
Base fee 1 NXT, with 2 NXT additional fee for each 32 chars of name plus description total length, after the first 32 chars. Name and description size limits remain at 100 and 1000 chars. AccountInfo transactions throttled at one per block.

Polls:
Base fee 10 NXT for polls with up to 20 options, and total size of poll name plus poll description plus total option length not exceeding 320 chars. For each option above 20, an additional fee of 1 NXT, and for each 32 chars after 320, an additional fee of 1 NXT. Poll creation throttled to one per block. Name, description, and option length limits remain at 100, 1000, and 100 chars respectively.

DGS Listing:
Base fee 2 NXT, with 2 NXT additional fee for each 32 chars of name plus description total length, after the first 32 chars. Name and description size limits remain at 100 and 1000 max. DGS Listing throttled at one per block.

DGS Delivery:
Base fee 1 NXT, with 2 NXT additional fee for each 32 bytes of encrypted goods data after the first 32 bytes, nonce and AES initialization bytes excluded. Encrypted goods data size limit remains 1000 bytes.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 07:54:53 pm by Damelon »
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Damelon

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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2015, 07:38:04 pm »

I like the idea about a series of polls with two choices each. We do need to shorten the voting period for each poll though, at most a week each, then it may still take up to three weeks total.

This forum need a place to post info about official Nxt poll. Note that it would be a bad idea to burry this kind of announcement in a general topic ok?

VanBreuk and I are discussing reshuffling the whole forums setup at the moment to accommodate all Core Development related things into one well organised whole :)
The plan is to change it before end of week. Don't be surprised when the forums look different :)
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Re: New fees and size limits in 1.7
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2015, 07:55:04 pm »

Low fees are killing forging economy and so just dangerous

It would not kill forging, cause it is already almost dead. But it could force people messedging, spending and trading more, so it will force NXT at all, bring more users to NXT, and then force forging to be alive.

It is better to get 0.5 nxt from 1000 users, than 2 NXT from 100 users. 
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