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[Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?  
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Damelon

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[Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« on: February 23, 2016, 12:56:21 pm »

This is the first informational poll we are doing about the Nxt 2.0.

Poll: "When should a snapshot be taken?" ending at block height 685513 (~ 08-03-2016)
For this vote it needs to be clear that no definitive decision has been made about implementation of the fNXT/NXT split!
We have asked the devs for clarification on this point and this was the answer given.
Counter proposals with supporting arguments and models are still very much welcome and will be taken into consideration. Please try to make them as precise as possible.

The options in this Poll are therefore conditional on this split being done.

This Poll has three options to choose from:

1. Snapshot at time of hard fork
2. Snapshot backdated to before announcement of Nxt 2.0 (8th of February 2016)
3. Snapshot within the next 1-4 months

What is the "snapshot"? It is the point in time of your nxt balance being eligible for getting fnxt in a predetermined ratio.
The ratio still needs to be determined. Thanks to durerus for asking for this clarification on slack.

As a poll is just a bare choice, please use this thread if you feel the need to add additional arguments to your vote.

As this is a vote by Nxt balance, we know that Assets are not included in the vote. We would like to ask Asset Issuers (or holders, whomever has the time/inclination) to put up votes of their own, but voting by specific Assets. We want to get a clear view of how the respective parts of the community feel about these issues.

More Polls will be put up over the coming weeks.

My Token for this account (NXT-7J9K-G536-NPVS-2N89E) is: ddusfjd8rt3ce3k1vgaa8ab4a1sqh7edtk7sqhn1e2akg1ul79kishi6r8gggeg42eg1bikrpkahhdgqas63er9btljq2b3rg19n9fq3suo06m859qb8g6fkk2n11teqvf1g7nk0l3nnl2rq5kb07fasu330bm86
Verify using the text "Nxt 2.0 Voting"

Vote can be followed here: https://nxtportal.org/polls/12536280419851201672
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 02:14:42 pm by Damelon »
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wolffang

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2016, 01:18:24 pm »

Thnx, I will vote tonight!
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2016, 01:55:13 pm »

Snapshot would be based on 1:1 split of nxt into fnxt/nxt or snapshot - could - be also based on idea that their would be a redistribution of fnxt to other holders than nxt?

I'm also interested in poll to see how many support split, how many not.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 02:01:40 pm by Marc De Mesel »
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Damelon

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 02:12:38 pm »

Snapshot would be based on 1:1 split of nxt into fnxt/nxt or snapshot - could - be also based on idea that their would be a redistribution of fnxt to other holders than nxt?

I'm also interested in poll to see how many support split, how many not.

There will be a separate thread about the options for the ratio for a split, even before a poll on it.

The other one is also planned. We just don't want to go to fast with numerous polls, so as not to confuse the issue by conflating several options at the same time.
All this is exploratory.
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NxtSwe

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 02:21:47 pm »

Edit: When I wrote this I had not read the OP properly, and somehow missed that this was ONLY fNXT while I believed the snapshot would be applied for both fNXT and NXT in 2.0 platform.

I hate repeating myself, but I believe this is quite important, so here goes:

The only option that makes any sense is "Snapshot at time of hard fork" since the other options will absolutely murder the value of NXT between the snapshot and when NXT2.0 is up and running.

If are holding NXT, you could make money by holding your NXT until snapshot block, and when it is passed you sell everything as fast as you can (it will be a race, since everyone else will be doing the same on different markets ofc). If you can make a few BTC from it, that's great news for you! Not only will you get your NXT and fNXT back at launch of NXT2.0, you also got some 'free' BTC out of it from clueless users who obviously was not as informed as you were.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 03:25:43 pm by NxtSwe »
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Jean-Luc

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 02:37:27 pm »

The only option that makes any sense is "Snapshot at time of hard fork" since the other options will absolutely murder the value of NXT between the snapshot and when NXT2.0 is up and running.

Actually, I am not so sure, now I think the best option both for NXT holders and for asset holders is a snapshot a few months from now, not at the hard fork. It is bad for NXT holders to postpone the snapshot very long, because it will hurt adoption of Nxt platform by any prospective asset or currency issuers. It is also bad for current asset holders, as at the time of the hard fork the 2.0 design will be fully implemented, tested and demonstrated, and holding NXT instead of assets in order to get more fNXT will be very attractive.

If we do the snapshot say 2-3 months from now, it will be much less certain for potential fNXT investors - including current asset holders - how well the fNXT proposal will turn out, how soon it will be ready, plus there is always a risk that it will not materialize. This makes a potential asset dump much less likely, as fNXT will still be a high risk investment at this point.

If we do this option, we should consider issuing an asset or currency to represent the fNXT between the snapshot time and hardfork time, to allow it to be traded in the meantime.

Quote
Not only will you get your NXT and fNXT back at launch of NXT2.0, you also got some 'free' BTC out of it from clueless users who obviously was not as informed as you were.
Not the NXT. The snapshot, if done before the hard fork, would determine only how much fNXT an account gets at the hard fork. But since in this case the 1.7 blockchain continues to run from the snapshot until the hard fork, the NXT balances carried over to 2.0 will be those at the time of the hard fork, not those at the time of the snapshot. It wouldn't make any sense otherwise to have an early snapshot as an option. And asset balances, MS currencies, aliases, will be carried over to 2.0 - again as of the time of the hard fork.
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NxtSwe

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 03:23:34 pm »

Arghhh!
I take my last comment back, I somehow missed that this was ONLY fNXT while I believed the snapshot would be applied for both fNXT and NXT in 2.0 platform.
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durerus

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2016, 03:29:46 pm »

@Jean-Luc: You should add this to the OP of the first 2.0 thread
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durerus

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2016, 03:51:34 pm »

The only option that makes any sense is "Snapshot at time of hard fork" since the other options will absolutely murder the value of NXT between the snapshot and when NXT2.0 is up and running.

Actually, I am not so sure, now I think the best option both for NXT holders and for asset holders is a snapshot a few months from now, not at the hard fork. It is bad for NXT holders to postpone the snapshot very long, because it will hurt adoption of Nxt platform by any prospective asset or currency issuers. It is also bad for current asset holders, as at the time of the hard fork the 2.0 design will be fully implemented, tested and demonstrated, and holding NXT instead of assets in order to get more fNXT will be very attractive.

If we do the snapshot say 2-3 months from now, it will be much less certain for potential fNXT investors - including current asset holders - how well the fNXT proposal will turn out, how soon it will be ready, plus there is always a risk that it will not materialize. This makes a potential asset dump much less likely, as fNXT will still be a high risk investment at this point.

If we do this option, we should consider issuing an asset or currency to represent the fNXT between the snapshot time and hardfork time, to allow it to be traded in the meantime.
Does this make this poll redundant?
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testdruif

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2016, 04:30:00 pm »

If we do this option, we should consider issuing an asset or currency to represent the fNXT between the snapshot time and hardfork time, to allow it to be traded in the meantime.

If we go with an asset or currency, will there be a buyback of the asset/currency? (maybe a bit too soon but I'm wondering what the process will be to make things clear)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 05:32:58 pm by testdruif »
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Cassius

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2016, 04:36:39 pm »

The only option that makes any sense is "Snapshot at time of hard fork" since the other options will absolutely murder the value of NXT between the snapshot and when NXT2.0 is up and running.

Actually, I am not so sure, now I think the best option both for NXT holders and for asset holders is a snapshot a few months from now, not at the hard fork. It is bad for NXT holders to postpone the snapshot very long, because it will hurt adoption of Nxt platform by any prospective asset or currency issuers. It is also bad for current asset holders, as at the time of the hard fork the 2.0 design will be fully implemented, tested and demonstrated, and holding NXT instead of assets in order to get more fNXT will be very attractive.

If we do the snapshot say 2-3 months from now, it will be much less certain for potential fNXT investors - including current asset holders - how well the fNXT proposal will turn out, how soon it will be ready, plus there is always a risk that it will not materialize. This makes a potential asset dump much less likely, as fNXT will still be a high risk investment at this point.

If we do this option, we should consider issuing an asset or currency to represent the fNXT between the snapshot time and hardfork time, to allow it to be traded in the meantime.


This very much makes the most sense to me (assuming that no other viable approach than f/NXT is proposed).

A snapshot before the announcement was made will attract extensive criticism about distribution and deals done in smoke-filled back rooms.
A snapshot at hardfork will involve months of uncertainty and the possibility of an asset crash and horrendous volatility - and no new users coming to Nxt for a year.
A snapshot in a couple of months gives everyone time to know what's going on, and a long period of clarity afterwards.

Having a tradeable MS token is also a nice touch since it gives people the chance to get in even after the 'IPO' snapshot, rather like Ethercoin did after the initial Ethereum IPO.

There's not going to be a perfect solution, but this feels like progress.
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Sebastien256

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2016, 05:37:39 pm »

The only option that makes any sense is "Snapshot at time of hard fork" since the other options will absolutely murder the value of NXT between the snapshot and when NXT2.0 is up and running.

Actually, I am not so sure, now I think the best option both for NXT holders and for asset holders is a snapshot a few months from now, not at the hard fork. It is bad for NXT holders to postpone the snapshot very long, because it will hurt adoption of Nxt platform by any prospective asset or currency issuers. It is also bad for current asset holders, as at the time of the hard fork the 2.0 design will be fully implemented, tested and demonstrated, and holding NXT instead of assets in order to get more fNXT will be very attractive.

If we do the snapshot say 2-3 months from now, it will be much less certain for potential fNXT investors - including current asset holders - how well the fNXT proposal will turn out, how soon it will be ready, plus there is always a risk that it will not materialize. This makes a potential asset dump much less likely, as fNXT will still be a high risk investment at this point.

If we do this option, we should consider issuing an asset or currency to represent the fNXT between the snapshot time and hardfork time, to allow it to be traded in the meantime.


Creating an asset is a good idea, but since there will still be a risk that the implementation cannot be achieved, because fNXT asset is before fork, the asset will be undervalue I believe, until the real fork happen.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2016, 05:46:00 pm »

If we issue an fNXT asset, at the time of the hard fork it will be converted to real fNXT, and not exist as an asset after the fork. Its value can be expected to be pumped as the fork approaches, so instead of other asset holders dumping their assets for NXT, they would be dumping them to buy the fNXT asset...
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Sebastien256

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2016, 05:47:59 pm »

@Damelon
In any case, I think the next poll should include those possible vote cast:
4. Snapshot within the next 1-4 months with asset create to trade fNXT before fork
5. Snapshot backdated to before announcement of Nxt 2.0 (8th of February 2016) with asset create to trade fNXT before fork
Or something like that  :).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 05:50:12 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2016, 05:48:33 pm »

If we issue an fNXT asset, at the time of the hard fork it will be converted to real fNXT, and not exist as an asset after the fork. Its value can be expected to be pumped as the fork approaches, so instead of other asset holders dumping their assets for NXT, they would be dumping them to buy the fNXT asset...

Yes, I also think that is what would happen.

Edit, I think it would help to keep the price of NXT more constant, overall.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 05:55:47 pm by Sebastien256 »
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Damelon

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2016, 07:21:40 pm »

@Damelon
In any case, I think the next poll should include those possible vote cast:
4. Snapshot within the next 1-4 months with asset create to trade fNXT before fork
5. Snapshot backdated to before announcement of Nxt 2.0 (8th of February 2016) with asset create to trade fNXT before fork
Or something like that  :).

We'll have to see how the next one needs to be done :)

This is also an example of why I am a bit surprised why people are trying to conclude everything is already set in stone.

Today we already saw two new options emerge and I expect more to pop up as thoughts evolve.

Creativity in my experience usually comes from high pressure, but it can never be forced or predicted. I see all parties involved (whether people believe it or not) trying their utmost to achieve as good a solution to all. That this isn't achieved from the word "go" is not weird, but normal.
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Cassius

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2016, 07:23:25 pm »

Two? fnxt asset was the first, what was the second?
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Brangdon

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2016, 10:21:56 pm »

Presumably as soon as the snapshot is taken, the value of NXT drops sharply because the value of fNXT is taken out of it. This should cause assets and other goods priced in NXT to be repriced, to preserve their actual value. If the snapshot is done sooner rather than later, the effect will be reduced because the value of fNXT will be lower because of the uncertainty. Do it early enough and the effect might be lost in the noise.

If there is an asset, the value of that asset should reflect the value of fNXT. It would be good to know that value, in advance of the fork. If it is too low to secure the network adequately, we'd at least have the option of abandoning 2.0 rather than risk destroying it. The fork will be a bit less of a leap into the unknown.
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blackyblack1

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2016, 05:48:18 am »

Presumably as soon as the snapshot is taken, the value of NXT drops sharply because the value of fNXT is taken out of it. This should cause assets and other goods priced in NXT to be repriced, to preserve their actual value. If the snapshot is done sooner rather than later, the effect will be reduced because the value of fNXT will be lower because of the uncertainty. Do it early enough and the effect might be lost in the noise.

If there is an asset, the value of that asset should reflect the value of fNXT. It would be good to know that value, in advance of the fork. If it is too low to secure the network adequately, we'd at least have the option of abandoning 2.0 rather than risk destroying it. The fork will be a bit less of a leap into the unknown.
Totally agree.
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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2016, 08:07:02 am »

The only option that makes any sense is "Snapshot at time of hard fork" since the other options will absolutely murder the value of NXT between the snapshot and when NXT2.0 is up and running.

Actually, I am not so sure, now I think the best option both for NXT holders and for asset holders is a snapshot a few months from now, not at the hard fork.
Obviously Snapshot at time of hard fork is the best option IMO.

Let's say today Snapshot,tomorrow the price of NXT is 0,forgers stopped forging,network terminated,and Nxters are just waiting for fNXT distribution. ::)
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Cassius

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2016, 08:19:16 am »

The only option that makes any sense is "Snapshot at time of hard fork" since the other options will absolutely murder the value of NXT between the snapshot and when NXT2.0 is up and running.

Actually, I am not so sure, now I think the best option both for NXT holders and for asset holders is a snapshot a few months from now, not at the hard fork.
Obviously Snapshot at time of hard fork is the best option IMO.

Let's say today Snapshot,tomorrow the price of NXT is 0,forgers stopped forging,network terminated,and Nxters are just waiting for fNXT distribution. ::)

Hence the asset
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lurker10

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2016, 08:39:25 am »

The only option that makes any sense is "Snapshot at time of hard fork" since the other options will absolutely murder the value of NXT between the snapshot and when NXT2.0 is up and running.

Actually, I am not so sure, now I think the best option both for NXT holders and for asset holders is a snapshot a few months from now, not at the hard fork.
Obviously Snapshot at time of hard fork is the best option IMO.

Let's say today Snapshot,tomorrow the price of NXT is 0,forgers stopped forging,network terminated,and Nxters are just waiting for fNXT distribution. ::)

Hence the asset

Can't we do 50% of fNXT distribution in 2-5 months and start trading it as an asset and the other half at the 2.0 hard fork to smooth out the possible negative consequences of the instant full distribution.
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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2016, 08:44:27 am »

The only option that makes any sense is "Snapshot at time of hard fork" since the other options will absolutely murder the value of NXT between the snapshot and when NXT2.0 is up and running.

Actually, I am not so sure, now I think the best option both for NXT holders and for asset holders is a snapshot a few months from now, not at the hard fork.
Obviously Snapshot at time of hard fork is the best option IMO.

Let's say today Snapshot,tomorrow the price of NXT is 0,forgers stopped forging,network terminated,and Nxters are just waiting for fNXT distribution. ::)

Hence the asset
Asset can not secure the network,Only NXT at 1.X
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Marc De Mesel

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2016, 09:23:23 am »

I think at hard fork is the best.

It gives a long time to promote upcoming nxt 2.0, a long time for people to buy nxt in anticipation to get fnxt.

It puts pressure on the developers to deliver without having sold any tokens & obligation to deliver.


The moment you create an asset fNxt, all the speculation value will go to fNxt and not nxt, so value will shift to there. Nxt will not rise anymore. Not good. Nxt should rise as long as possible to get back into the crypto scene's attention.

Asset holders will see their asset's value go down in nxt, but if nxt goes up, they will see their assets go up in fiat value nonetheless and won't complain.

People waiting to launch new assets and currencies in anticipation of nxt 2.0 will happen as nxt 2.0 offers many more possibilities to launch your own crypto but this is good as the future is not nxt asset exchange nor nxt monetary system, it's the fNxt platform, and you want people to start dreaming what they can build with it.


I think what is most important is that the launch of nxt 2.0 is successful. This means that it is easy to do a fork of nxt, start your own currency/crypto, and easy to be a fNxt forger. I feel this has been the weak point in the past, new features being too difficult to use (mixing coins/launch your own currency), not having good business models (aliases), or lacking critical parts (market place), causing low adoption. I'm interested to help here, test & give critical feedback during development and before release.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 09:41:37 am by Marc De Mesel »
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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2016, 09:42:41 am »

The moment you create an asset fNxt, all the speculation value will go to fNxt and not nxt, so value will shift to there. Nxt will not rise anymore. Not good. Nxt should rise as long as possible to get back into the crypto scene's attention.

You need NXT to get fNXT, trading an asset is a way to get new users onboard, marketed properly this could go a long way. They have to buy NXT first. fNXT is not like other assets, businesses won't sell it for BTC. Value pumped into NXT buying fNXT stays in NXT. But there is a danger if 100% of fNXT is distributed at once with both methods, this is why half in a few months and half at the hard fork is not unwarranted, and removes some tension in the community if votes split.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 09:46:25 am by lurker10 »
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Jean-Luc

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2016, 10:25:25 am »

Let's say today Snapshot,tomorrow the price of NXT is 0,forgers stopped forging,network terminated,and Nxters are just waiting for fNXT distribution. ::)

But why would the price of NXT go down that drastically after an early snapshot? At this time, the Nxt blockchain would be still as functional as it is now, and perhaps more attractive to new asset issuers as a lot of the uncertainty about what would happen at snapshot time will be over. There is still the uncertainty about what would happen at the hard fork, but as both fNXT (in the form of an asset) and NXT continue to be traded, it can be expected that their market values will adjust slowly and there will not be a big jump in any direction at hard fork time. Unlike a snapshot at hard fork, when fNXT will not have been possible to trade before, and suddenly both fNXT and NXT prices will reset drastically in an unpredictable directions.

About dumping of NXT after an early snapshot, some of that will occur, however those who entered the market only in order to get fNXT, will initially own equal amounts of fNXT and NXT. Since just like after an IPO it can be expected that fNXT starts going up, isn't it more likely that profit seekers would dump their fNXT first, to lock in max profit, instead of the NXT which has started going down? Because, from the snapshot till hard fork time, it would still be NXT that would be powering the blockchain, fNXT asset will be for speculative purposes only.
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lurker10

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2016, 10:38:48 am »

those who entered the market only in order to get fNXT, will initially own equal amounts of fNXT and NXT. Since just like after an IPO it can be expected that fNXT starts going up, isn't it more likely that profit seekers would dump their fNXT first, to lock in max profit, instead of the NXT which has started going down?

There is uncertainty with this reasoning. We can only expect low priced bids at Asset exchange if 1 billion fNXT are distributed at once and a lot of the supply is dumped. Most NXT users will already have reasonable amounts of fNXT from distribution, who will be the buyers? This opens the danger of concentration of 'free' fNXT from profit seekers into the few hands of NXT whales and new FUD campaign against NXT. This can't be avoided in the free market, but the risks can be somewhat mitigated if half is distributed in the near future and half at the hard fork. This is one of the compromises that can be made when both parties are not sure what is best.

I still believe burning NXT for fNXT should be a more responsible and safe way of solving this problem but some call it theft. The next best and safe model is half now, half at the hard fork, in my opinion. Distributing all at once is least safe of them all.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 10:52:26 am by lurker10 »
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Cassius

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2016, 10:39:47 am »

It's risky trying to predict markets, but...
Some people will buy NXT with BTC before the snapshot to gain fNXT, and promptly sell the NXT to recoup their BTC investment. I'd expect a spike in NXT price immediately before the snapshot, then. Much like what happened with NXT price and SuperNET ICO.
Post-snapshot? Some will sell their fNXT assets for NXT. Expect a drop in fNXT price. Some will sell the NXT they get. Expect a drop in NXT price.
Longer term, newcomers will buy fNXT for NXT.
Contrarians will buy NXT early and sell to profit from the pre-snapshot pump. They may also set buy orders below 1 NXT for fNXT as non-believers bank their windfall.
Just another day in cryptoland.
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bcdev

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2016, 11:07:56 am »

Make a 100 snapshots.

100 days before the hard fork make a special asset/currency called fNXT.
Every day pay a dividend to each account holding NXT with 1/100 of held NXT.
At time of the fork burn fNXT "asset" and give every holder real fNXT. [automatically in code]

This way:
1) We smooth the transition for asset holders - only 1% of NXT value change each day instead of one giant WHOOP!
2) We smooth the transition for NXT currency - only 1% change in price every day
3) We allow for price of fNXT to stabilize smoothly
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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2016, 11:30:39 am »

Make a 100 snapshots.

100 days before the hard fork make a special asset/currency called fNXT.
Every day pay a dividend to each account holding NXT with 1/100 of held NXT.
At time of the fork burn fNXT "asset" and give every holder real fNXT. [automatically in code]

This way:
1) We smooth the transition for asset holders - only 1% of NXT value change each day instead of one giant WHOOP!
2) We smooth the transition for NXT currency - only 1% change in price every day
3) We allow for price of fNXT to stabilize smoothly

That's a good idea but it's a LOT of tx fees.
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valarmg

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2016, 12:00:32 pm »

2. Snapshot backdated to before announcement of Nxt 2.0 (8th of February 2016)

I like 2. It means that Nxt can continue on as normal, no spikes or dips due to fNxt creation, no big speculators getting in and making money, then dumping. Genuine Nxt holders who have been in for the long term get the fNxt. This should mean no big dip, which should help assetholders. It also adds certainty.

What's the disadvantage?
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bcdev

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2016, 12:01:12 pm »

That's a good idea but it's a LOT of tx fees.
All of this could be done in code:
- Hard fork
- 100 days of snapshots in java code - no transactions, no blockchain bloat, no fees
- fNXT goes into effect

------------------------

I don't like fNXT. IMO jl777's lockNXT/unlockNXT proposal is better.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 12:03:50 pm by bcdev »
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Jean-Luc

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2016, 01:50:34 pm »

Make a 100 snapshots.

100 days before the hard fork make a special asset/currency called fNXT.
Every day pay a dividend to each account holding NXT with 1/100 of held NXT.
At time of the fork burn fNXT "asset" and give every holder real fNXT. [automatically in code]

This is another option to be considered. It can be generalized further to do the calculation for fNXT distribution not based on daily snapshots, but at each block, still paying out the "dividend" daily.

This would certainly require a 1.8 hardfork, to release this code out, with the usual overhead of preparing a hard fork release, and making sure everyone is informed in advance and updates their nodes. So it would be a few months before it can be started.

Doing a one time snapshot, before the 2.0 hardfork, may be done without a hardfork, but would indeed require sending 45k transactions out, one for each account currently holding NXT, and likely more as we get new users entering in. This means fees, plus not being able to send out all transactions at once, and having to make sure all of those transactions did get included in blocks. Doing it with a 1.8 hardfork might be better even if we do one snapshot only.
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Cassius

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2016, 01:54:08 pm »

Is there a way of doing with the 'magical invisible div' function? I thought that only used 1 NXT per batch of txs.
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Jean-Luc

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2016, 02:01:36 pm »

No, the dividend payment transaction only works based on asset holding, and pays the dividend in NXT. Here we need something that calculates dividend based on NXT holding, and pays it out in fNXT (which would be an asset at this point).

Also, it would be best to smooth it out completely and do the dividend calculation as I suggested based on the NXT holding at each block during the day, averaging out the amount, so that it does not matter when exactly during the day you held it. This again requires writing custom code.
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farl4bit

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2016, 10:01:46 pm »

2. Snapshot backdated to before announcement of Nxt 2.0 (8th of February 2016)

I like 2. It means that Nxt can continue on as normal, no spikes or dips due to fNxt creation, no big speculators getting in and making money, then dumping. Genuine Nxt holders who have been in for the long term get the fNxt. This should mean no big dip, which should help assetholders. It also adds certainty.

What's the disadvantage?
Imagine you are a big Nxter, but you had you NXT into many assets or currencies temporarily at that moment. People would consider it unfair.

Make a 100 snapshots.

100 days before the hard fork make a special asset/currency called fNXT.
Every day pay a dividend to each account holding NXT with 1/100 of held NXT.
At time of the fork burn fNXT "asset" and give every holder real fNXT. [automatically in code]

This is another option to be considered. It can be generalized further to do the calculation for fNXT distribution not based on daily snapshots, but at each block, still paying out the "dividend" daily.

This would certainly require a 1.8 hardfork, to release this code out, with the usual overhead of preparing a hard fork release, and making sure everyone is informed in advance and updates their nodes. So it would be a few months before it can be started.

Doing a one time snapshot, before the 2.0 hardfork, may be done without a hardfork, but would indeed require sending 45k transactions out, one for each account currently holding NXT, and likely more as we get new users entering in. This means fees, plus not being able to send out all transactions at once, and having to make sure all of those transactions did get included in blocks. Doing it with a 1.8 hardfork might be better even if we do one snapshot only.

Cool that new ideas emerge! Great stuff guys, but I still don't know what option would be the best in this current poll. This last option 1.8 hardfork seems the best to me.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 10:04:11 pm by farl4bit »
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bcdev

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2016, 02:58:15 am »

Cool that new ideas emerge! Great stuff guys, but I still don't know what option would be the best in this current poll. This last option 1.8 hardfork seems the best to me.
lockNXT/unlockNXT. No snapshots, no increase in coin supply, no breach of trust in NXT. No problems for asset holders.
If someone wants fNXT -> lockNXT. If someone wants NXT back, unlockNXT.
NXT will become a childchain and fNXT will be pegged to it 1:1.

Increasing the coin supply is an extremely bad idea from an economic standpoint.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 03:00:55 am by bcdev »
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Jean-Luc

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Re: [Foundation Poll] When should a snapshot be taken?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2016, 09:04:11 am »

lockNXT/unlockNXT. No snapshots, no increase in coin supply, no breach of trust in NXT. No problems for asset holders.
If someone wants fNXT -> lockNXT. If someone wants NXT back, unlockNXT.
NXT will become a childchain and fNXT will be pegged to it 1:1.

Unfortunately, this is not an option as it breaks security:

https://nxtforum.org/core-development-discussion/nxt-2-0-child-chain-tokens-pegged-to-fnxt/msg210867/#msg210867
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