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Author Topic: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!  (Read 16031 times)

Jean-Luc

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Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« on: November 17, 2015, 05:39:41 pm »

In case anyone did not pay attention:

1. There will be changes in fees and permanent message size limit in 1.7. They will take effect in the 1.7 hard fork, in very early January 2016.

2. These changes will break any application that has hardcoded fees of 1 NXT, or uses permanent messages exceeding 160 bytes.

3. THESE CHANGES HAVE BEEN ANNOUNCED ALREADY, AND ALL API USERS CAN, AND ABSOLUTELY MUST START UPDATING THEIR CODE NOW. DO NOT WAIT UNTIL 1.7 STABLE IS RELEASED, AND THEN COMPLAIN THAT YOU HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN ENOUGH NOTICE. START UPDATING TO 1.6.2, USE SERVER-SIDE FEE CALCULATION, AND EITHER SWITCH TO PRUNABLE MESSAGES, OR MAKE SURE PERMANENT MESSAGE SIZE DOES NOT EXCEED 160 BYTES.

4. To repeat. Do not wait until 1.7.1 stable, and then blame the developers for not giving sufficient advance notice once it is suddenly released and the hard fork is right around the corner. THIS IS THE ADVANCE NOTICE.

Technical questions about the transition should be discussed here: https://nxtforum.org/core-development-discussion/adapting-client-side-code-to-the-fee-changes-planned-for-1-7/
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yassin54

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2015, 05:52:04 pm »

farl4bit

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2015, 06:22:38 pm »

Thanks for the update. Next time with less big red and assumtions that people are going to blame you?  ::)

Lets keep a good atmosphere.  :)
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lucky88888

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2015, 10:16:47 pm »

very important.

bump
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3rdStryker

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2015, 04:07:58 am »

There is a growing frustration with the API changes within the NXT community and it is dividing the whole community. I love your work with the wallet but we need some stability for assets building on NXT as this really is the reason why I invested in NXT, real adoption. I know NXT is young and changes are inevitable but can you please give us a rough date when the API will remain stable as all these changes are setting back ALL of my investments which I have spent thousands of dollars on.

Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2015, 09:08:32 am »

There is a growing frustration with the API changes within the NXT community and it is dividing the whole community. I love your work with the wallet but we need some stability for assets building on NXT as this really is the reason why I invested in NXT, real adoption. I know NXT is young and changes are inevitable but can you please give us a rough date when the API will remain stable as all these changes are setting back ALL of my investments which I have spent thousands of dollars on.
Hmmmm. I dont see it that way. I see a just a few 'asset' owners relaying their mild annoyance of changes and requesting more notice of any upcoming changes, and ONE particular asset-owner-whale, who controls waaaaay too much weight of the asset pie, is protesting so much, that its starting to look like an exit strategy, from where im sitting.
Your 'assets' (and mine) are currently worth shit, cos 95% of them are simply instruments of speculation. They have no viable business reasons to exist, because James's plan of creating the needed circular flow of money, is failing in its expectations.
I dont know the first thing about code. The demographic of adopters, has to be made up of people like me, for the NXT 'brand' to be worth anything meaningful and valued. All i see currently, is the same ole clever and talented small clique of people, making points that the majority of us, either dont understand, and/or dont want to understand. As far as im concerned, Jean-Luc can continue forging ahead in creating a platform that he believes others can build on. Its up to the asset owners and businesses to create value, not Jean-Luc.
With due and genuine respect to James and his talent, his protests and frustrations are coming across as a pathetic cop-out, quite frankly. Sorry, thats what i see. I also see that he needs help and support, as he has obviously over-extended his capabilities, and intended mission.....hey, he is human after all!  :)
 
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3rdStryker

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2015, 12:33:11 pm »

I am on the BTCOR team and we have a developer building an application on top of NXT so no my main investment isn't SuperNet. I also write and edit the BTCOR magazine. Our magazine has been giving free PR to NXT and NXT projects. It is meant to encourage people to learn about NXT and to build on it too. If NXT continues to change the API I don't think any business could honestly take NXT seriously and I will need to rethink endorsing NXT as not THE bitcoin 2.0 block chain but ONE OF MANY Bitcoin 2.0 block chains.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 01:04:42 pm by 3rdStryker »
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Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2015, 01:24:24 pm »

I am on the BTCOR team and we have a developer building an application on top of NXT so no my main investment isn't SuperNet. I also write and edit the BTCOR magazine. Our magazine has been giving free PR to NXT and NXT projects. It is meant to encourage people to learn about NXT and to build on it too. If NXT continues to change the API I don't think any business could honestly take NXT seriously and I will need to rethink endorsing NXT as not THE bitcoin 2.0 block chain but ONE OF MANY Bitcoin 2.0 block chains.
So, are we saying that API's are really that fundamental to the perception of a given platform? How much work does it really take for an operator to update their system to accommodate a change? 
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3rdStryker

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2015, 01:44:03 pm »

It doesn't matter if it is a little work or a lot. The time frame from one release to another is below the industry standard.

Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2015, 02:28:53 pm »

It doesn't matter if it is a little work or a lot. The time frame from one release to another is below the industry standard.
So, its fundamental that a platform meets the industry standard? Whats the industry standard? Some examples?
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valarmg

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2015, 02:41:15 pm »

I am on the BTCOR team and we have a developer building an application on top of NXT so no my main investment isn't SuperNet. I also write and edit the BTCOR magazine. Our magazine has been giving free PR to NXT and NXT projects. It is meant to encourage people to learn about NXT and to build on it too. If NXT continues to change the API I don't think any business could honestly take NXT seriously and I will need to rethink endorsing NXT as not THE bitcoin 2.0 block chain but ONE OF MANY Bitcoin 2.0 block chains.
So, are we saying that API's are really that fundamental to the perception of a given platform? How much work does it really take for an operator to update their system to accommodate a change?

It's not about perception. It's about being a stable platform that businesses/software devs can build on. People thought that was what Nxt was. Turns out it's not, and Nxt don't seem to care about being useful as a platform (feedback from those who decided to build on top of Nxt are ignored). So businesses and app developers will choose another platform. Software can be hard to get right, it becomes impossible if there are too many moving parts.

Say Linux was a platform that people wanted to build on. It looked like it was becoming popular, and apps were built. Then Linux changed its API and all those apps broke. So all of app developers went and fixed their apps, went through a testing cycle, had users reinstall everything. Then two months later the API was broken again. Let's just say that Linux wouldn't have continued to draw app developers or users.


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chanc3r

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2015, 02:48:58 pm »

There is a growing frustration with the API changes within the NXT community and it is dividing the whole community. I love your work with the wallet but we need some stability for assets building on NXT as this really is the reason why I invested in NXT, real adoption. I know NXT is young and changes are inevitable but can you please give us a rough date when the API will remain stable as all these changes are setting back ALL of my investments which I have spent thousands of dollars on.

Hi,
I appreciate the concern.. your text above is non specific so I thought I would respond to clarify.

There were some specific changes in 1.6.2 in the API which as long as the affected call was updated it meant that the rest of your application did not need to change... also the affected call could be updated on 1.5.15 and it would have worked seamlessly with 1.6.2..

Crucially a non updated call to the API would have resulted in different results between 1.5.15 and 1.6.2 - this is what happened in some cases and this was more about clear communication than any technical issue with the direction of the platform itself. This has already been acknowledged needs to improve and this is why you see such a visible discussion of 1.7 changes.

So in summary for the much discussed 1.6.2 changes...
1. The affected calls could be updated on the 1.5.x current release without waiting for the new release so in this sense the API was 'forwards compatible'.
2. The call always returns then the same results on 1.5.x and 1.6.x so there was no downstream or logic changes for your application again an example of compatibility being maintained as along as the API call had been updated.

1.7 IS NOT ABOUT API its about fundamental things that have been on the NXT roadmap for over  year, it is a major revision and improves the longevity and monetisation of the NXT blockchain. THIS IS A GOOD THING!

It does not change how you ask NXT to do things (API) BUT it does change WHAT NXT will let you do and HOW much this will cost...

Unfortunately it means change and we need to deal with this change without criticism, threats or disrespect and use forums like this to defined strategies to prepare for it if you have a business or application which is affected.
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Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2015, 03:11:09 pm »

Cheers valarmg + chanc3r. I understand a little better now.
I can certainly see a big problem with the change, when the amount of operators using NXT is large, and also broad like the Linux example. Im just wondering if we are getting too ahead of ourselves currently, where currently, the amount of operators is small and relatively inconsequential to the vision of mass adoption and use. Seems to me, for a 2 year platform, change should be viewed and accepted as a necessary evil, and should also be viewed as a cost of business. Change is a good thing. It shows progress.
Does Jean-Luc's roadmap indicate many more changes to come?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 03:13:35 pm by Thames »
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v39453

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2015, 03:53:48 pm »

I can certainly see a big problem with the change, when the amount of operators using NXT is large, and also broad like the Linux example.

Linux and operating systems are old tech.  It's not a great comparison to cryptos. Nxt was supposed to find other use cases for a consensus network in addition to money. I don't expect the APIs to be perfect immediately.

Also there hasn't been continuous change in Nxt's API. There was a fight because a small change was made.

Quote
Change is a good thing. It shows progress.

It's great that we have active devs, and a roadmap with more features. I didn't see the need for a API change in 1.6, but I don't want to see a stagnant platform either.

If at some point the majority of Nxt users refuse to install the new version from the devs, the platform will be frozen. I hope most of the features in the Nxt roadmap will be implemented before that. Unfortunately the Nxt devs seem to have wasted some "capital" for change in 1.6.
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3rdStryker

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2015, 04:10:25 pm »

I do not suggest the NXT devs put up their feet for a year and do not work on the platform. Upgrades are great, but stability is just as important. Again I come back to what I initially wanted answered. Will there be a point in the not so distant future when the NXT devs will implement a stable API?

v39453

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2015, 04:40:31 pm »

Will there be a point in the not so distant future when the NXT devs will implement a stable API?

I'm not a dev, so these are only my opinions.

I would imagine changes will be made if something is discovered to work incorrectly. My reading of the changes in 1.6 and 1.7 was that the devs felt Nxt worked incorrectly. Were they absolutely necessary is another issue.

I would also imagine that if there is an application worth 500 million dollars which uses an API that is considered to work incorrectly, the API would not be changed. At that point Nxt would have found its use case. But to get to that point we need active devs. I don't think tieing their hands by requiring that the API is kept perfectly stable is the way to get there.
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lurker10

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2015, 05:20:18 pm »

It doesn't matter if it is a little work or a lot. The time frame from one release to another is below the industry standard.

There is no industry standard. In fact, NXT sets industry standards as cutting-edge blockchain technology. Bitcoin doesn't count, it's not a platform. Sure, full backwards compatibility is nice to have, but other software you refer to doesn't have to deal with blockchains and can have users delay upgrades, sometimes not upgrade at all. Blockchain technology is different than your normal software, standards are different.
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chanc3r

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2015, 06:36:48 pm »

I do not suggest the NXT devs put up their feet for a year and do not work on the platform. Upgrades are great, but stability is just as important. Again I come back to what I initially wanted answered. Will there be a point in the not so distant future when the NXT devs will implement a stable API?

The API is stable, it is reliable, it does whats its documented to do, extremely flexible, well structured, etc..

Change does not equal instability, especially the recent minor changes.
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BTCDDev

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2015, 08:59:00 pm »

I have been very disturbed by the recent tone. Nxt changed the API with no advance notice and broke existing user applications right after the community donated $70,000 for increased attention on Nxt. They have to own that.

Please stop insinuating that developers of user applications are whiners. This is doing harm to Nxt, something I do not want to see.

In short, cut the drama.

Other than that, I'm looking forward to 1.7.
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Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2015, 09:24:54 pm »

I have been very disturbed by the recent tone. Nxt changed the API with no advance notice and broke existing user applications right after the community donated $70,000 for increased attention on Nxt. They have to own that.

Please stop insinuating that developers of user applications are whiners. This is doing harm to Nxt, something I do not want to see.

In short, cut the drama.

Other than that, I'm looking forward to 1.7.
Apart from James related stuff, and i think coinomat, who else are we talking about, who felt entitled to be aggrieved with the API change?
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