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Jean-Luc

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Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« on: November 17, 2015, 05:39:41 pm »

In case anyone did not pay attention:

1. There will be changes in fees and permanent message size limit in 1.7. They will take effect in the 1.7 hard fork, in very early January 2016.

2. These changes will break any application that has hardcoded fees of 1 NXT, or uses permanent messages exceeding 160 bytes.

3. THESE CHANGES HAVE BEEN ANNOUNCED ALREADY, AND ALL API USERS CAN, AND ABSOLUTELY MUST START UPDATING THEIR CODE NOW. DO NOT WAIT UNTIL 1.7 STABLE IS RELEASED, AND THEN COMPLAIN THAT YOU HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN ENOUGH NOTICE. START UPDATING TO 1.6.2, USE SERVER-SIDE FEE CALCULATION, AND EITHER SWITCH TO PRUNABLE MESSAGES, OR MAKE SURE PERMANENT MESSAGE SIZE DOES NOT EXCEED 160 BYTES.

4. To repeat. Do not wait until 1.7.1 stable, and then blame the developers for not giving sufficient advance notice once it is suddenly released and the hard fork is right around the corner. THIS IS THE ADVANCE NOTICE.

Technical questions about the transition should be discussed here: https://nxtforum.org/core-development-discussion/adapting-client-side-code-to-the-fee-changes-planned-for-1-7/
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yassin54

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2015, 05:52:04 pm »

farl4bit

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2015, 06:22:38 pm »

Thanks for the update. Next time with less big red and assumtions that people are going to blame you?  ::)

Lets keep a good atmosphere.  :)
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lucky88888

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2015, 10:16:47 pm »

very important.

bump
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3rdStryker

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2015, 04:07:58 am »

There is a growing frustration with the API changes within the NXT community and it is dividing the whole community. I love your work with the wallet but we need some stability for assets building on NXT as this really is the reason why I invested in NXT, real adoption. I know NXT is young and changes are inevitable but can you please give us a rough date when the API will remain stable as all these changes are setting back ALL of my investments which I have spent thousands of dollars on.

Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2015, 09:08:32 am »

There is a growing frustration with the API changes within the NXT community and it is dividing the whole community. I love your work with the wallet but we need some stability for assets building on NXT as this really is the reason why I invested in NXT, real adoption. I know NXT is young and changes are inevitable but can you please give us a rough date when the API will remain stable as all these changes are setting back ALL of my investments which I have spent thousands of dollars on.
Hmmmm. I dont see it that way. I see a just a few 'asset' owners relaying their mild annoyance of changes and requesting more notice of any upcoming changes, and ONE particular asset-owner-whale, who controls waaaaay too much weight of the asset pie, is protesting so much, that its starting to look like an exit strategy, from where im sitting.
Your 'assets' (and mine) are currently worth shit, cos 95% of them are simply instruments of speculation. They have no viable business reasons to exist, because James's plan of creating the needed circular flow of money, is failing in its expectations.
I dont know the first thing about code. The demographic of adopters, has to be made up of people like me, for the NXT 'brand' to be worth anything meaningful and valued. All i see currently, is the same ole clever and talented small clique of people, making points that the majority of us, either dont understand, and/or dont want to understand. As far as im concerned, Jean-Luc can continue forging ahead in creating a platform that he believes others can build on. Its up to the asset owners and businesses to create value, not Jean-Luc.
With due and genuine respect to James and his talent, his protests and frustrations are coming across as a pathetic cop-out, quite frankly. Sorry, thats what i see. I also see that he needs help and support, as he has obviously over-extended his capabilities, and intended mission.....hey, he is human after all!  :)
 
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3rdStryker

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2015, 12:33:11 pm »

I am on the BTCOR team and we have a developer building an application on top of NXT so no my main investment isn't SuperNet. I also write and edit the BTCOR magazine. Our magazine has been giving free PR to NXT and NXT projects. It is meant to encourage people to learn about NXT and to build on it too. If NXT continues to change the API I don't think any business could honestly take NXT seriously and I will need to rethink endorsing NXT as not THE bitcoin 2.0 block chain but ONE OF MANY Bitcoin 2.0 block chains.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 01:04:42 pm by 3rdStryker »
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Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2015, 01:24:24 pm »

I am on the BTCOR team and we have a developer building an application on top of NXT so no my main investment isn't SuperNet. I also write and edit the BTCOR magazine. Our magazine has been giving free PR to NXT and NXT projects. It is meant to encourage people to learn about NXT and to build on it too. If NXT continues to change the API I don't think any business could honestly take NXT seriously and I will need to rethink endorsing NXT as not THE bitcoin 2.0 block chain but ONE OF MANY Bitcoin 2.0 block chains.
So, are we saying that API's are really that fundamental to the perception of a given platform? How much work does it really take for an operator to update their system to accommodate a change? 
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3rdStryker

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2015, 01:44:03 pm »

It doesn't matter if it is a little work or a lot. The time frame from one release to another is below the industry standard.

Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2015, 02:28:53 pm »

It doesn't matter if it is a little work or a lot. The time frame from one release to another is below the industry standard.
So, its fundamental that a platform meets the industry standard? Whats the industry standard? Some examples?
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valarmg

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2015, 02:41:15 pm »

I am on the BTCOR team and we have a developer building an application on top of NXT so no my main investment isn't SuperNet. I also write and edit the BTCOR magazine. Our magazine has been giving free PR to NXT and NXT projects. It is meant to encourage people to learn about NXT and to build on it too. If NXT continues to change the API I don't think any business could honestly take NXT seriously and I will need to rethink endorsing NXT as not THE bitcoin 2.0 block chain but ONE OF MANY Bitcoin 2.0 block chains.
So, are we saying that API's are really that fundamental to the perception of a given platform? How much work does it really take for an operator to update their system to accommodate a change?

It's not about perception. It's about being a stable platform that businesses/software devs can build on. People thought that was what Nxt was. Turns out it's not, and Nxt don't seem to care about being useful as a platform (feedback from those who decided to build on top of Nxt are ignored). So businesses and app developers will choose another platform. Software can be hard to get right, it becomes impossible if there are too many moving parts.

Say Linux was a platform that people wanted to build on. It looked like it was becoming popular, and apps were built. Then Linux changed its API and all those apps broke. So all of app developers went and fixed their apps, went through a testing cycle, had users reinstall everything. Then two months later the API was broken again. Let's just say that Linux wouldn't have continued to draw app developers or users.


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chanc3r

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2015, 02:48:58 pm »

There is a growing frustration with the API changes within the NXT community and it is dividing the whole community. I love your work with the wallet but we need some stability for assets building on NXT as this really is the reason why I invested in NXT, real adoption. I know NXT is young and changes are inevitable but can you please give us a rough date when the API will remain stable as all these changes are setting back ALL of my investments which I have spent thousands of dollars on.

Hi,
I appreciate the concern.. your text above is non specific so I thought I would respond to clarify.

There were some specific changes in 1.6.2 in the API which as long as the affected call was updated it meant that the rest of your application did not need to change... also the affected call could be updated on 1.5.15 and it would have worked seamlessly with 1.6.2..

Crucially a non updated call to the API would have resulted in different results between 1.5.15 and 1.6.2 - this is what happened in some cases and this was more about clear communication than any technical issue with the direction of the platform itself. This has already been acknowledged needs to improve and this is why you see such a visible discussion of 1.7 changes.

So in summary for the much discussed 1.6.2 changes...
1. The affected calls could be updated on the 1.5.x current release without waiting for the new release so in this sense the API was 'forwards compatible'.
2. The call always returns then the same results on 1.5.x and 1.6.x so there was no downstream or logic changes for your application again an example of compatibility being maintained as along as the API call had been updated.

1.7 IS NOT ABOUT API its about fundamental things that have been on the NXT roadmap for over  year, it is a major revision and improves the longevity and monetisation of the NXT blockchain. THIS IS A GOOD THING!

It does not change how you ask NXT to do things (API) BUT it does change WHAT NXT will let you do and HOW much this will cost...

Unfortunately it means change and we need to deal with this change without criticism, threats or disrespect and use forums like this to defined strategies to prepare for it if you have a business or application which is affected.
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Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2015, 03:11:09 pm »

Cheers valarmg + chanc3r. I understand a little better now.
I can certainly see a big problem with the change, when the amount of operators using NXT is large, and also broad like the Linux example. Im just wondering if we are getting too ahead of ourselves currently, where currently, the amount of operators is small and relatively inconsequential to the vision of mass adoption and use. Seems to me, for a 2 year platform, change should be viewed and accepted as a necessary evil, and should also be viewed as a cost of business. Change is a good thing. It shows progress.
Does Jean-Luc's roadmap indicate many more changes to come?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 03:13:35 pm by Thames »
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v39453

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2015, 03:53:48 pm »

I can certainly see a big problem with the change, when the amount of operators using NXT is large, and also broad like the Linux example.

Linux and operating systems are old tech.  It's not a great comparison to cryptos. Nxt was supposed to find other use cases for a consensus network in addition to money. I don't expect the APIs to be perfect immediately.

Also there hasn't been continuous change in Nxt's API. There was a fight because a small change was made.

Quote
Change is a good thing. It shows progress.

It's great that we have active devs, and a roadmap with more features. I didn't see the need for a API change in 1.6, but I don't want to see a stagnant platform either.

If at some point the majority of Nxt users refuse to install the new version from the devs, the platform will be frozen. I hope most of the features in the Nxt roadmap will be implemented before that. Unfortunately the Nxt devs seem to have wasted some "capital" for change in 1.6.
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3rdStryker

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2015, 04:10:25 pm »

I do not suggest the NXT devs put up their feet for a year and do not work on the platform. Upgrades are great, but stability is just as important. Again I come back to what I initially wanted answered. Will there be a point in the not so distant future when the NXT devs will implement a stable API?

v39453

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2015, 04:40:31 pm »

Will there be a point in the not so distant future when the NXT devs will implement a stable API?

I'm not a dev, so these are only my opinions.

I would imagine changes will be made if something is discovered to work incorrectly. My reading of the changes in 1.6 and 1.7 was that the devs felt Nxt worked incorrectly. Were they absolutely necessary is another issue.

I would also imagine that if there is an application worth 500 million dollars which uses an API that is considered to work incorrectly, the API would not be changed. At that point Nxt would have found its use case. But to get to that point we need active devs. I don't think tieing their hands by requiring that the API is kept perfectly stable is the way to get there.
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lurker10

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2015, 05:20:18 pm »

It doesn't matter if it is a little work or a lot. The time frame from one release to another is below the industry standard.

There is no industry standard. In fact, NXT sets industry standards as cutting-edge blockchain technology. Bitcoin doesn't count, it's not a platform. Sure, full backwards compatibility is nice to have, but other software you refer to doesn't have to deal with blockchains and can have users delay upgrades, sometimes not upgrade at all. Blockchain technology is different than your normal software, standards are different.
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chanc3r

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2015, 06:36:48 pm »

I do not suggest the NXT devs put up their feet for a year and do not work on the platform. Upgrades are great, but stability is just as important. Again I come back to what I initially wanted answered. Will there be a point in the not so distant future when the NXT devs will implement a stable API?

The API is stable, it is reliable, it does whats its documented to do, extremely flexible, well structured, etc..

Change does not equal instability, especially the recent minor changes.
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BTCDDev

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2015, 08:59:00 pm »

I have been very disturbed by the recent tone. Nxt changed the API with no advance notice and broke existing user applications right after the community donated $70,000 for increased attention on Nxt. They have to own that.

Please stop insinuating that developers of user applications are whiners. This is doing harm to Nxt, something I do not want to see.

In short, cut the drama.

Other than that, I'm looking forward to 1.7.
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Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2015, 09:24:54 pm »

I have been very disturbed by the recent tone. Nxt changed the API with no advance notice and broke existing user applications right after the community donated $70,000 for increased attention on Nxt. They have to own that.

Please stop insinuating that developers of user applications are whiners. This is doing harm to Nxt, something I do not want to see.

In short, cut the drama.

Other than that, I'm looking forward to 1.7.
Apart from James related stuff, and i think coinomat, who else are we talking about, who felt entitled to be aggrieved with the API change?
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BTCDDev

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2015, 09:41:15 pm »

I have been very disturbed by the recent tone. Nxt changed the API with no advance notice and broke existing user applications right after the community donated $70,000 for increased attention on Nxt. They have to own that.

Please stop insinuating that developers of user applications are whiners. This is doing harm to Nxt, something I do not want to see.

In short, cut the drama.

Other than that, I'm looking forward to 1.7.
Apart from James related stuff, and i think coinomat, who else are we talking about, who felt entitled to be aggrieved with the API change?

Not sure I understand the question, why does it matter?
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3rdStryker

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2015, 05:11:39 am »

I agree with BTCDDev in every sense. Even if it was a small amount of applications you are thinking too one dimensional. You are eliminating the possibly for more applications to be built on NXT by changing the API so often. For the end user everything looks A OK. But for developers it is a big deal. How do you expect NXT to grow if no one wants to build on it? How do you expect NXT to grow if you are forcing the people who are currently working on it to move to another block chain?

For the record, SuperNet, Skynet (Finhive), drachmae and coinomat were all affected. I am sure there are more, but these 4 entities alone are working just as hard for NXT as the NXT core devs are so their voices should be heard.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 06:06:14 am by 3rdStryker »
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Damelon

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2015, 11:45:07 am »

Just want to put some of my observations in here, as experienced the last week.

As you know, Dave and I were asked to mediate in the dispute, and because we want NXT to flourish, we did.

We think it's vital that all voices are heard and that all concerns are taken aboard.

The situation we were confronted with was frankly almost impossible.

BOTH parties, and their support, just kept hammering on their own respective positions, and there was NO willingness to move even an inch.

Party one was insistent his position was best and party two insisted just the same, and no amount of talking on our part could persuade the other that giving some ground would help us get past the shitty situation we had gotten ourselves in and move on to the future where we would create protocols to make this less possible to happen.

Because that's what you do: if the jug is broken, you cannot put back the milk, but clean up and make sure it doesn't get broken again.

Meanwhile, things got even worse. Things got personal for no reason. Emotion began to overtake the whole process. Factions were forming that became even more entrenched in their positions.

Now I read some of these posts and am groaning out loud.

I have a newsflash: NXT is NOT a major corporation with a large amount of resources!

We are a grass roots group that has done an awesome job of making what we have, with resources that are laughably low!

Yes, in a perfect world all of these things would be possible, but as has been explained numerous times by the devs, without more resources (talking people here) they can only do so much.
I advise the hardliners on the issue of complete industry standard compliance to realise that we don't have the means to reach that standard yet!

On the other hand, I see the core devs apparently making arbitrary decisions that hurt a large partner. I deplore the hardness exhibited here and the fact that it doesn't seem to loom large in their conciousness.

From my end: both sides have an enormous part of blame in this whole situation.

My advice: get off your soapbox and TALK to eachother, knowing that a large part of this community is getting fed up with you sitting in your rooms not communicating directly. You are all grown-ups and taken responsibility for your respective projects. You have a responsibility and should man up and take it. Your investors and users want resolution.

Resolution does NOT mean forcing the other party to capitulate! It means working out a means to get a compromise. It means building trust and earning it. This also goes for both sides.

Compromise, be creative, think, put yourself in the others position.

For the supporters: quit fanning the fires. It's not helping your project. It's not helping yourself. This is not a contest. We are not ten year olds that need to "win". We are adults and can behave this way.

In the last two weeks, we got an agreement from both James and Jean Luc to go into a chat together. This never was done and I think they should ASAP.
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Thames

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2015, 12:34:59 pm »

Heres my view, and then i will STFU....

The claim that entities are 'working hard for NXT' is not only logically false, but its this kind of self-appointed importance that needs to stop.
Firstly, entities, will always have their own business/project self interests at the forefront of their motives, way before any meaningful considerations of its associated platform. By meaningful, i mean, what value does the current crop of crap on the AE, REALLY give to NXT? As ive said, currently 95% are worthless shit that does, and will do absolutely nothing, for the much needed broad ordinary user base, and business adoption that NXT needs to survive as a viable platform.
Secondly, Vitalik certainly doesnt need help from third party interests to 'work hard' for ETH. Quite rightly, people choosing ETH as a platform to work on, will do so for their own self-interest and motives. Microsoft aint getting involved to work for ETH, and i would be utterly amazed if their main consideration was based on how many times they believe an API was going to changed.   
   
At some point, NXT will hopefully attract the interest of a company/business that has a turnover several magnitudes higher than the minnows on the AE and their associated operators/devs, and then the voices of those operators/devs should be ignored as being insignificant. Sorry if that sounds arrogant and misguided, but if Jean-Luc's inbox had 5 enquires on a given day, and one of them was from Microsoft or similar, who should he prioritise his attention to? Its just business. The kind of business NXT now needs, and hopefully, the kind of business the Tennessee project will produce. And, probably the kind of business that would have enough clout and relevance to nail any core devs bollocks to the mast, as far as future change is concerned, and it would be quite right for Jean-Luc to go out his way to accommodate a close working relationship. But that clout does not exist right now.
I dont personally consider James or anyone else to have the necessary clout, to feel entitled to influence Jean-Luc's roadmap, until those projects start behaving like REAL businesses that have meaningful and significant turnover, and that crosses over into real world use.
 
Seen the price of NXT and most of the assets lately? Tis a metric that tells me its time to move away from interesting and clever projects, cos the experiment aint working my friends. C'mon, lets start moving towards the end-game. Its getting tedious around here.

 
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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2015, 12:49:11 pm »

This is a remarkably unhelpful post. Many of those involved in Nxt-related businesses are committed to the success of Nxt. Ask them if you disagree. They hold plenty of NXT as well as their own assets. Interests are aligned, as they should be and as they can be at this still-early point in Nxt's growth.
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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2015, 01:05:49 pm »

Heres my view, and then i will STFU....

The claim that entities are 'working hard for NXT' is not only logically false, but its this kind of self-appointed importance that needs to stop.
Firstly, entities, will always have their own business/project self interests at the forefront of their motives, way before any meaningful considerations of its associated platform. By meaningful, i mean, what value does the current crop of crap on the AE, REALLY give to NXT? As ive said, currently 95% are worthless shit that does, and will do absolutely nothing, for the much needed broad ordinary user base, and business adoption that NXT needs to survive as a viable platform.
Secondly, Vitalik certainly doesnt need help from third party interests to 'work hard' for ETH. Quite rightly, people choosing ETH as a platform to work on, will do so for their own self-interest and motives. Microsoft aint getting involved to work for ETH, and i would be utterly amazed if their main consideration was based on how many times they believe an API was going to changed.   
   
At some point, NXT will hopefully attract the interest of a company/business that has a turnover several magnitudes higher than the minnows on the AE and their associated operators/devs, and then the voices of those operators/devs should be ignored as being insignificant. Sorry if that sounds arrogant and misguided, but if Jean-Luc's inbox had 5 enquires on a given day, and one of them was from Microsoft or similar, who should he prioritise his attention to? Its just business. The kind of business NXT now needs, and hopefully, the kind of business the Tennessee project will produce. And, probably the kind of business that would have enough clout and relevance to nail any core devs bollocks to the mast, as far as future change is concerned, and it would be quite right for Jean-Luc to go out his way to accommodate a close working relationship. But that clout does not exist right now.
I dont personally consider James or anyone else to have the necessary clout, to feel entitled to influence Jean-Luc's roadmap, until those projects start behaving like REAL businesses that have meaningful and significant turnover, and that crosses over into real world use.
 
Seen the price of NXT and most of the assets lately? Tis a metric that tells me its time to move away from interesting and clever projects, cos the experiment aint working my friends. C'mon, lets start moving towards the end-game. Its getting tedious around here.

 

Yes, forget about everyone who is working hard on the Nxt platform right now because they are not that important. Wait for a Microsoft to magically decide to start using Nxt. (Remember how great getting OverStock worked out for Counterparty. Of course, possibly the devs wouldn't listen to any big fish either.) If any of the small projects did become big and real-world, well by then they'll likely have moved away from using Nxt the way things are going.


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wesley

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2015, 01:20:46 pm »

It seems to me the maximum is being done to make the changes as easy for developers as possible. Switching to calculated fees couldn't be easier (just set feeNQT to 0). They've even added a configuration property in nxt.properties that allows you not to change any code at all, if set will simply ignore invalid (too low) fees and use the minimum fee instead.

Same for pruned messages, configuration options have been added so that all pruned data can be stored indefinitely. And prunable messages have been available since april or something. The issue some third party developers have seems to be about the feature itself, not about the API design in this case.
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chanc3r

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2015, 01:50:46 pm »

How the tone of this thread changed, maybe I unfortunately contributed...

I saw no drama, I saw no one being accused of whining.
The NXT team have admitted that 1.6.2 changes could have been publicised better.
I'admit that if I'd read the 1.6.1e release notes (admittedly) a lot more carefully I would have picked up the changes, it was there but not in big red letters hopefully in the future it will be.

This is why there is so much being posted about 1.7
A lot has been done to enable people to prepare for 1.7 now before its even live and offers have been made to have more than one fork to introduce new features and give people more time to prepare.

I have only seen 2 specific issues posted, one has been resolved already by J-L, the other is more difficult issue.

It is unfortunate that there is still a disagreement with James and J-L on a permanent message change that impacts MGW but this does not need to magnify into general argument between users of the NXT platform and its core developers.

So perhaps we can use this thread as intended to post and discuss specific issues people have with preparing for the changes in 1.7 around fees and limits and let the specific MGW issue take its own path.
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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2015, 08:47:02 pm »

Will there be a point in the not so distant future when the NXT devs will implement a stable API?
I gather that's the intention for 1.7. I believe Jean-Luc said there were no more backwards compatibility changes planned for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2015, 10:56:14 pm »

@J-L - I have a question about prunable messages - forgive me I may use the wrong terms...

If I download a block containing a transaction with a permanent message, I can trust the contents of the message returned by the API call as the message is part of the block and therefore someone can't try to fake the message.

If the message is prunable then when its pruned its no longer part of the block or is it? So if I set my node to download the pruned data - does my node automatically verify that the pruned messages it receives from an archival node are the ones that were originally pruned from the block?

I am trying to work out whether I can rely on anonymous public archival nodes, whether I need to use a 'known' public or my own archival node... what verification of pruned data NXT does for me and whether I need to include specific verification that a pruned item was the one that was originally in the block e.g. by comparing hashes...

I hope the question is clear, yes I'm being paranoid that someone might try to set up a bad archival node..
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 11:19:13 pm by chanc3r »
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Cassius

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2015, 09:57:18 am »

Will there be a point in the not so distant future when the NXT devs will implement a stable API?
I gather that's the intention for 1.7. I believe Jean-Luc said there were no more backwards compatibility changes planned for the foreseeable future.

Not to labour the point for reasons that should be obvious, but can someone confirm this or point me to the latest statement on this from the core devs?
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2015, 10:34:30 am »

If the message is prunable then when its pruned its no longer part of the block or is it? So if I set my node to download the pruned data - does my node automatically verify that the pruned messages it receives from an archival node are the ones that were originally pruned from the block?
The prunable message is never actually a part of the transaction bytes that are being signed and stored in the transaction table, only a sha256 hash of it is included in the transaction bytes. When restoring, the transaction JSON received from the archival node is parsed, the transaction signature verified, and in that process the fact that the prunable part included in that JSON gives the same hash is also verified. You will get an error like this if the archival node tried to modify the pruned message:

Code: [Select]
2015-11-20 01:45:37 SEVERE: Peer 178.162.198.109 returned invalid prunable transaction
nxt.NxtException$NotValidException: Invalid transaction signature for transaction {"senderPublicKey":"b978af7a6ea8e1bff4df6080703d5750604b2a5ebe90c5011e37e2a89e220152","signature":"55bb1e4838269aad9d484ec2f526163206b86ceda8f279156c8cd65b966f1d04786c7ede96df8961b2b95364f3019926eaf6f0c4b57fed2c0a293ab064bf044a","feeNQT":100000000,"type":1,"version":1,"ecBlockId":"2306000649502458297","attachment":{"version.PrunablePlainMessage":1,"messageIsText":true,"messageHash":"5db6a9f46e3830fcad98cf9607fa3cf6cae9736998e202df64002d4c51d158c4","message":"test plain prunable messagV","version.ArbitraryMessage":0},"subtype":0,"amountNQT":0,"recipient":"11274269400387066343","ecBlockHeight":497932,"deadline":1440,"timestamp":62590768}
at nxt.TransactionImpl.parseTransaction(TransactionImpl.java:814)
at nxt.TransactionProcessorImpl.restorePrunableData(TransactionProcessorImpl.java:769)
at nxt.BlockchainProcessorImpl$RestorePrunableDataTask.run(BlockchainProcessorImpl.java:905)
at java.util.concurrent.Executors$RunnableAdapter.call(Executors.java:511)
at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask.run(FutureTask.java:266)
at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor.runWorker(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:1142)
at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:617)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:745)

Note that the archival nodes don't need to have their API open to the public, retrieval of pruned data is done on the peer to peer network (port 7874).
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 10:37:07 am by Jean-Luc »
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allwelder

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2015, 11:42:05 am »

Whether we should we think more about the coin shuffle feature before release?
It's better from a third party service provider.

"Interior and justice ministers from the European Union have organized a crisis meeting this Friday to plan an effective crackdown of anonymous payment method and virtual currencies to curb terrorism funding."
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/breaking-european-union-crisis-meeting-planned-to-call-for-control-of-virtual-currencies-after-paris-attacks/
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Brangdon

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2015, 09:38:03 pm »

I believe Jean-Luc said there were no more backwards compatibility changes planned for the foreseeable future.

Not to labour the point for reasons that should be obvious, but can someone confirm this or point me to the latest statement on this from the core devs?
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chanc3r

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2015, 10:13:17 pm »


The prunable message is never actually a part of the transaction bytes that are being signed and stored in the transaction table, only a sha256 hash of it is included in the transaction bytes. When restoring, the transaction JSON received from the archival node is parsed, the transaction signature verified, and in that process the fact that the prunable part included in that JSON gives the same hash is also verified. You will get an error like this if the archival node tried to modify the pruned message:


J-L one last clarification - does this mean prunable and permanent messages are stored differently? i.e. permanent messages AE stored in the transaction table?
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2015, 07:18:32 am »

Yes, they are stored differently. Transaction attachment are stored as byte array in a column in the transaction table, this byte array representing exactly the bytes that are being signed. The prunable messages, tagged data, and shuffling processing data, are not part of those bytes (only their hashes are), and they are stored in a separate table which makes pruning (and restoring) easier. For almost all attachments, derived objects are also created in separate tables, so that the bytes in the attachment column don't need to be parsed again. Currently this is not done for permanent message.

The details of what is stored where can change at any time because it is a matter of implementation, no one should assume the database schema will stay unchanged.
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chanc3r

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2015, 10:02:07 am »

Thanks J-L that was useful, sorry then it brings up one more...

Message attachments in asset transfers can be permanent also - yes?

So does this mean they are stored in the attachment table also, whether prunable or not, because the transaction itself uses up the transaction bytes?
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Jean-Luc

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Re: Start preparing for 1.7 - NOW!
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2015, 10:05:35 am »

Message attachments in asset transfers can be permanent also - yes?
Yes, it does not matter what transaction type a message is attached to.
Quote
So does this mean they are stored in the attachment table also, whether prunable or not, because the transaction itself uses up the transaction bytes?
No, if prunable they are not stored in the transaction table, never.
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