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BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
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Author Topic: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD  (Read 133978 times)

yassin54

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2015, 10:05:46 am »

Thank you!  ;D ;D

crackers

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2015, 02:43:38 pm »

thanks guys!
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Cassius

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2015, 09:08:11 am »

Another pretty good week, and we're not running at full speed yet. Bittrex bots still to be fully implemented. We're also looking at adding further measures to boost weekly revenues and build NAV.

MMBTCD (8122396658538927693) Total issued assets: 1000000, Assets to be distributed to: 400000
Summary of proposed distribution of 97 [superBTCD] assets to 78 assetholders
Based on ownership at timestamp 49236915 (Wed, 17 Jun 2015 08:55:15 GMT)
Message included-->Dividend from asset MMBTCD(8122396658538927693): MMBTCD dividend

It's been a crazy week in the alts, with sharp rises for both NXT and BTCD. It will be interesting to see which moves most - BTCD is not yet listed on BTC38 or other Chinese exchanges. That will have an effect on the NXT <> BTCD rate, of course.

Edit: stakers' dividends will be sent out by Azeh later. They will actually be bigger overall than the MMBTCD div, thanks to donations from Mivond (bitcoindarkdice.net) and jl777. The idea is that people who build services on top of BTCD will consider donating 10% to stakers, which will not only strengthen the network but increase the value of the currency by drawing in new holders who want to take advantage of the regular dividends: win/win.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 09:14:13 am by Cassius »
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Cassius

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2015, 08:35:44 am »

So this week the Bittrex bot is up and running for the first time, along with the Polo bot. Total dividends for holders (minus 10% for stakers) = 10,492 NXT, which is 79.5 BTCD. Despite a bit of a fall in the last few days from its spike over $2, BTCD is still far more expensive than it was a week ago, hence the total looking lower. Also, the bot sold high and bought low, so is now waiting to sell some of its holdings.

MMBTCD (8122396658538927693) Total issued assets: 1000000, Assets to be distributed to: 400000
Summary of proposed distribution of 79.5 [superBTCD] assets to 87 assetholders
Based on ownership at timestamp 49839375 (Wed, 24 Jun 2015 08:16:15 GMT)
Message included-->Dividend from asset MMBTCD(8122396658538927693): MMNXT dividend

Stakers payments will go out later - thanks Mivond for a nice bonus this week.

Some new developments mean we'll hopefully be able to do some things with MMBTCD that we had been planning, just a little more effectively. It should put the project on a very good long-term footing. More on that when things are clearer.
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Cassius

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2015, 10:04:26 am »

Dividend day:

MMBTCD (8122396658538927693) Total issued assets: 1000000, Assets to be distributed to: 400000
Summary of proposed distribution of 84 [superBTCD] assets to 92 assetholders
Based on ownership at timestamp 50450367 (Wed, 01 Jul 2015 09:59:27 GMT)
Message included-->Dividend from asset MMBTCD(8122396658538927693): MMBTCD dividend

Not bad, given that BTCD strengthened considerably in the last couple of days, and NXT didn't get much of a rise from the BTC increase, unlike many other alts.

Will keep you posted on other developments as they arise - we should know more this week.
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PureVision

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2015, 10:40:32 am »

How much is the dividend per asset?
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Cassius

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2015, 10:44:41 am »

How much is the dividend per asset?

I'm not at a computer with a client running right now, but I assume 84/400,000 = 0.00021 superBTCD/asset.
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Cassius

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2015, 10:30:24 am »

Folks:
You may have seen that coinomat, whale and myself are launching a Nxt fund called E9: https://nxtforum.org/assets-board/e9-multistrategy-nxt-hedge-fund-bots-fx-crypto-trading-and-asset-portfolio/
This will do many of the same things that MMBTCD does - bots, trading and an investment portfolio, only on a larger scale. It's a lot like our long-term plan for MMBTCD, except of course that it pays out in NXT, not superBTCD. One of the critical differences is that a proportion of revenues compounds, meaning that assets under management and therefore revenues grow over time.
We would like to use MMBTCD funds to buy one or two tranches of 25k E9 assets: ~250-500k NXT. This would leave a little left over as cash, but would mean most of MMBTCD's portfolio was allocated. The bots will continue running (there is no immediate conflict of interest, because MMBTCD bots provide liquidity for BTCD, not NXT) and the remainder of the portfolio will stay the same.
I think this would put us in a very good position going forwards. All being well, it would mean getting in on the ground floor of the asset, so hopefully good capital growth and steadily increasing revenues.
Please let us know any thoughts you have about this.
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Kitchentable

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2015, 01:02:00 pm »

When I read about E9 the first thing that I thought of was it resemble too much of MMBTCD but without the BTCD. At that moment I wanted to post my concern over the two assets being too similar while also being managed by the same people. I knew you would probably want to have a connection between the two and waited to see.

I'm all for investing portion of the funds into E9. I would go for two trenches.
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Cassius

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2015, 01:11:42 pm »

When I read about E9 the first thing that I thought of was it resemble too much of MMBTCD but without the BTCD. At that moment I wanted to post my concern over the two assets being too similar while also being managed by the same people. I knew you would probably want to have a connection between the two and waited to see.

I'm all for investing portion of the funds into E9. I would go for two trenches.

I'm hoping for 2 tranches, but because it's not a core Nxt organisation we may or may not get that (it's not wholly up to me).
I agree they're similar, and in fact that's kind of the point and why MMBTCD can buy into E9 - E9 is what MMBTCD would be if it was larger and Nxt focused. I don't see there's a conflict of interests and in fact I think the E9 purchase will be very good for MMBTCD's long-term future.
Please do say what your exact concerns were, though.
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Kitchentable

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2015, 01:34:30 pm »

My concern was that E9 sounded exactly like what you wanted MMBTCD to be and so the focus of MMBTCD would change to being nothing more than a few bots and dividend paying assets seeing how the time constraint of running both assets might be too much. Those two could also be competing with each other when the difference is one pays in BTCD and the other pays in NXT so I have to decide on which one is best to hold. As of right now MGW isn't running so I can't send my BTCD coins to my qt wallet and let them stake. NXT in truth has more uses over BTCD. Take all that into consideration and E9 would be the better choice.

With E9 being in MMBTCD even if you don't have time to manage one over the other they will still be connected so all those concerns are a wash.
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prometheus

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2015, 04:59:45 pm »

e9 looks promising. I think it's a good place to allocate spare MMBTCD funds
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whatnxt

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2015, 05:28:02 pm »

So the plan is to delegate asset management to E9.

E9 and MMBTCD have nearly the same management team the difference is whale and Azeh respectively.

So Casius and Coinomat get paid to manage the assets in E9 and get paid to manage the same assets in MMBTCD.

Some of the MMBTCD assets Cassius and Coinomat hold in MMBTCD no longer fulfil their purpose since they are not rewarding anything that Cassius and Coinomat are doing as it is already done and rewarded in E9.

Does this mean Cassius and Coinomat will be releasing some of the assets they hold in MMBTCD?

That aside I see some conflicts of interest between the two funds developing in the future which may put one or other sets of shareholders at a disadvantage and cause friction with whale and Azeh. This is becasue Cassius and Coinomat may end up controlling a significant amount of the E9 fund.

The fact that Cassius and Coinomat are managing both assets means that there is added risk to MMBTCD since the loss of one or other person for any reason will have a magnified effect on MMBTCD's performance and may cripple it entirely if the stake is too high.

So my view is that, holding E9 it is not a good idea in the long term. In the short term, I agree there is growth potential and due to insider knowledge a lower risk than other investments.
So in the long term I do not think E9 should be the largest asset holding of MMBTCD 4th largest possibly. So regardless of the stake taken in the short term I would look to exchange it for other funds when some of the growth potential has been delivered with the aim of reducing MMBTCD's  dependency on E9 and the long term down side that the dependency can have.


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Cassius

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2015, 06:45:52 pm »

^^^^

Some interesting and potentially valid thoughts. Discuss :) I would like to know what people think about this.

A few points to consider:
1) Assets exist to earn revenues for their investors. This move ensures that is done more effectively. MMBTCD benefits a lot from this not despite the overlap in the team but because of it. MMBTCD investors can, I think, look forward to a bump in returns. Some might say that should be rewarded.
2) Whale happens to be a significant holder of MMBTCD and I've often asked for his advice with it, so the Venn diagram of owners gets even 'worse' from your perspective. Not much in the way on conflicts of interest with management though. Especially since I've discussed this a fair amount with Azeh, who has also signed up for a tranche of E9.
3) MMBTCD will still be managed as much as required, will still run BTCD bots, etc.
4) What I choose to do with my assets from MMBTCD and/or E9 is up to me. I may or may not decide to keep them, but that's my prerogative.
5) If coinomat goes dark MMBTCD holders are somewhat screwed, E9 holders quite screwed, MMNXT holders totally screwed.

It might well make sense to downweight the allocation of E9 in MMBTCD's portfolio. Or it might be a good medium-term investment. Or maybe I should get some guys together, create a 10m MegaFund and buy into it with E9...

But seriously. If anyone else has any thoughts about this please let us know.
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coinomat

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2015, 08:47:58 pm »

So the plan is to delegate asset management to E9.

E9 and MMBTCD have nearly the same management team the difference is whale and Azeh respectively.

So Casius and Coinomat get paid to manage the assets in E9 and get paid to manage the same assets in MMBTCD.

Some of the MMBTCD assets Cassius and Coinomat hold in MMBTCD no longer fulfil their purpose since they are not rewarding anything that Cassius and Coinomat are doing as it is already done and rewarded in E9.

Does this mean Cassius and Coinomat will be releasing some of the assets they hold in MMBTCD?

That aside I see some conflicts of interest between the two funds developing in the future which may put one or other sets of shareholders at a disadvantage and cause friction with whale and Azeh. This is becasue Cassius and Coinomat may end up controlling a significant amount of the E9 fund.

The fact that Cassius and Coinomat are managing both assets means that there is added risk to MMBTCD since the loss of one or other person for any reason will have a magnified effect on MMBTCD's performance and may cripple it entirely if the stake is too high.

So my view is that, holding E9 it is not a good idea in the long term. In the short term, I agree there is growth potential and due to insider knowledge a lower risk than other investments.
So in the long term I do not think E9 should be the largest asset holding of MMBTCD 4th largest possibly. So regardless of the stake taken in the short term I would look to exchange it for other funds when some of the growth potential has been delivered with the aim of reducing MMBTCD's  dependency on E9 and the long term down side that the dependency can have.
I don't quite get it, MMBTCD and E9 are totally different operations.
MMBTCD is focused on BTCD, E9 on NXT
I want to make it clear E9 should not have any effect on MMBTCD operations, if something makes you think that E9 somehow dwarfs MMBTCD it is not so. There's E9, there's MMBTCD, MMBTCD might hold some E9, but that's the only interplay they have
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Nxtblg

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2015, 01:34:11 pm »

Some interesting and potentially valid thoughts. Discuss :) I would like to know what people think about this.

Hasn't hurt the high bid for MMBTCD...if anything, the high bid's gone up.
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Azeh

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2015, 02:27:10 pm »

So the plan is to delegate asset management to E9.

E9 and MMBTCD have nearly the same management team the difference is whale and Azeh respectively.

So Casius and Coinomat get paid to manage the assets in E9 and get paid to manage the same assets in MMBTCD.

Some of the MMBTCD assets Cassius and Coinomat hold in MMBTCD no longer fulfil their purpose since they are not rewarding anything that Cassius and Coinomat are doing as it is already done and rewarded in E9.

Does this mean Cassius and Coinomat will be releasing some of the assets they hold in MMBTCD?

That aside I see some conflicts of interest between the two funds developing in the future which may put one or other sets of shareholders at a disadvantage and cause friction with whale and Azeh. This is becasue Cassius and Coinomat may end up controlling a significant amount of the E9 fund.

The fact that Cassius and Coinomat are managing both assets means that there is added risk to MMBTCD since the loss of one or other person for any reason will have a magnified effect on MMBTCD's performance and may cripple it entirely if the stake is too high.

So my view is that, holding E9 it is not a good idea in the long term. In the short term, I agree there is growth potential and due to insider knowledge a lower risk than other investments.
So in the long term I do not think E9 should be the largest asset holding of MMBTCD 4th largest possibly. So regardless of the stake taken in the short term I would look to exchange it for other funds when some of the growth potential has been delivered with the aim of reducing MMBTCD's  dependency on E9 and the long term down side that the dependency can have.

whtnxt, good points for discussion.

MMBTCD will still be managed Me, Cassius, and Coinomat and remains independent of E9.  As Cassius has mentioned before there is an overlap since E9 is just a much bigger version of MMBTCD and acts more like a hedge fund, but this will in no way inhibit the management decisions of MMBTCD.

Choosing where to allocate funds is always the difficult part and in MMBTCD's case it is no different.  However, E9, in my opinion is the best place to park our funds in the short-mid-term and will allow us to increase our revenues fairly quickly.  When to sell those assets will be up for discussion, but the goal is always the same, to maximize returns for MMBTCD holders.

And, remember, the main reason to own MMBTCD is to get paid in BTCD.  I know many in the NXT and SN community are not in full understanding of BTCD and it's importance within SN, and rightfully so because the tech isn't completed yet, but James has stated numerous times that when it is all finished BTCD will be equally as important as NXT within SN.

You'll want to have some BTCD  ;)

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whatnxt

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2015, 06:28:10 pm »

Good to here from you Azeh,

MMBTCD will still be managed Me, Cassius, and Coinomat and remains independent of E9.  As Cassius has mentioned before there is an overlap since E9 is just a much bigger version of MMBTCD and acts more like a hedge fund, but this will in no way inhibit the management decisions of MMBTCD.

Choosing where to allocate funds is always the difficult part and in MMBTCD's case it is no different.  However, E9, in my opinion is the best place to park our funds in the short-mid-term and will allow us to increase our revenues fairly quickly.  When to sell those assets will be up for discussion, but the goal is always the same, to maximize returns for MMBTCD holders.

I would prefer you to maximize returns while minimizing the risk  ;)

MMBTCD's ownership of a comparatively large chunk of E9 (from a distribution of shareholder size point of view)  poses a risk to E9. If MMBTCD has to sell it off quickly then E9 will suffer. This is a risk with all 'large' stake holders and something Coinomat has experienced with MMNXT. The make up of the Management team for MMBTCD should not prevent this sell off, if it is in the interests of the MMBTCD shareholders and not E9.

E9 has already gone down the root of attracting large shareholders (for good reasons), however, so you must also consider that there will be  a handful of shareholders that can crash the price of E9 if they have to sell quickly and given the type of shareholder E9 is trying to attract, more than one may be forced to sell at the same time. Such a sell off may be good news for MMBTCD in the long term, however, in the short term, you should expect the price of MMBTCD to share some of the more violent downward moves of E9, if and when they happen.
 
Quote
And, remember, the main reason to own MMBTCD is to get paid in BTCD.  I know many in the NXT and SN community are not in full understanding of BTCD and it's importance within SN, and rightfully so because the tech isn't completed yet, but James has stated numerous times that when it is all finished BTCD will be equally as important as NXT within SN.

You'll want to have some BTCD  ;)

Yes I am well aware of my ignorance of the grand plan which is one reason I bought into MMBTCD.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 06:35:15 pm by whatnxt »
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whatnxt

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2015, 06:32:39 pm »

Sorry, meant to edit previous message :)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 11:06:39 pm by whatnxt »
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Cassius

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Re: BTCD mutual fund and market-making asset, MMBTCD
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2015, 08:21:15 pm »

You're right that large holders do present a possible risk. Unfortunately, this is impossible to avoid. The idea behind the early sale was to lock in a large amount of funds as well as benefit core Nxt businesses; we very much hope that the ones who get the discount will be buy-and-hold investors (like MMBTCD).
If we simply put them on AE, it is likely that a few big buyers would take very large chunks. Given the level of interest shown, they could be fairly confident of selling at a higher price. I hope that won't happen with the remaining 220k assets, but there's no way to prevent it unless we sold everything off exchange, and that seems unfair to smaller buyers.
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