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[ANN] Kongzi News Service
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whatnxt

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2014, 08:13:44 am »

We will be happy with 5,000 shares sold or 50,000, and will consider ourselves blessed if we can sell more than that.

Is there a typo there, or are you saying you only need 5000 * 5 NXT? In which case what are the plans for the rest?
While we are on the subject, when do you expect to make a profit? You have already pointed out, else where, that there is a lot of work to do before you can cover every asset so any service offered to trading partners will be limited to start with, or do you already have this covered from your personal investing activities?
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printshop

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2014, 08:42:47 am »

I'm missing pieces of info in KNS asset description
Can you tell me if a KNS share is :
A- 1 / 1 million of the ownership of the company ?
B- representing 1 / 1 million of the profits of company ?
C- something else ?

Will you burn the excess shares?

We will have an IPO period where people can buy shares at 5 NXT. However many shares people buy, that is how the market should value our company. It does not matter if we sell 5 shares or 500,000. One share will be worth 5 NXT, and you will be able to sell out if you feel we are making too much money.

Honestly speaking I don't think it is a concern. I don't expect to sell more than 50,000 or 60,000 shares.

In conclusion, the basic idea is that shares which are held by the issuing account are "inactive". They don't represent ownership or control, and they don't generate dividends. So there will not be any dillution. I simply want to avoid the problem of one person buying up all the shares for 1 and then reselling at a 500% markup.

Let me know your thoughts; if enough people like the idea of lowering the share price or burning/destroying shares, I'll do it.

We will be happy with 5,000 shares sold or 50,000, and will consider ourselves blessed if we can sell more than that.

Is there a typo there, or are you saying you only need 5000 * 5 NXT? In which case what are the plans for the rest?
While we are on the subject, when do you expect to make a profit? You have already pointed out, else where, that there is a lot of work to do before you can cover every asset so any service offered to trading partners will be limited to start with, or do you already have this covered from your personal investing activities?

If we sell 5,000 shares things will be tight as hell. We will be able to afford the server cost for 1 year and the software we need to run it. In such a case I will be unable to hire people and I will have to do it alone. If we sell 50,000 things will be a lot easier, as I will be able to hire people and offer bounties, such as for the creation of a logo. If we were to sell 500,000 shares, then we could hire professional analysis.

Ramen profitability will occur at around 35-40 subscribers for our basic service, which will be priced at 100 NXT/month (i.e. less than $3).

There will be a period of expansion as we gain subscribers where I am able to devote more and more time to the project. Then there will come a point, at around 200 subscribers, where I begin to hire people and advertise. Once we pass that area we will be completely self-sufficient and may even begin repurchasing shares -- much like what I am doing now with KPS, repurchasing shares at a higher price than they were sold at previously.

whatnxt

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2014, 10:51:12 am »

Thanks for the clarification   :)
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PondSea

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2014, 11:16:01 am »

Not to sound like a dick but who will buy all the shares for 1 Nxt when you are llisting them for 5? You don't expect it to sell out so why would you be worried about this?

There are just too many pie in the sky offerings lately which cannot justify the market cap they want to get.
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printshop

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2014, 11:32:29 am »

Not to sound like a dick but who will buy all the shares for 1 Nxt when you are llisting them for 5? You don't expect it to sell out so why would you be worried about this?

There are just too many pie in the sky offerings lately which cannot justify the market cap they want to get.

No it's cool, your concerns are important. I want to show I am listening by making changes to how we IPO. If you have any suggestions I'm all ears.

Anyway, no shares will be sold for 1 NXT unless we lower the price. The IPO is priced at 5 NXT.

Right now we are giving investors a chance to buy shares before they are placed on the market. If you are interested in buying shares and want to make sure you get shares at the IPO price, just drop me a line and I'll sell you shares via asset transfer.

nxtuser

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2014, 11:47:07 am »

I'm missing pieces of info in KNS asset description
Can you tell me if a KNS share is :
A- 1 / 1 million of the ownership of the company ?
B- representing 1 / 1 million of the profits of company ?
C- something else ?

shares which are held by the issuing account are "inactive". They don't represent ownership or control, and they don't generate dividends.

Ok, Tank you for your answer. I understand that shares held by issuing account are "inactive". But what about the ones that are held by other accounts ? are they :
A- 1 part of all issued shares of the ownership of the company ?
B- representing 1 part of all issued shares of the profits of company ?
C- something else ?
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printshop

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2014, 01:34:44 pm »

I'm missing pieces of info in KNS asset description
Can you tell me if a KNS share is :
A- 1 / 1 million of the ownership of the company ?
B- representing 1 / 1 million of the profits of company ?
C- something else ?

shares which are held by the issuing account are "inactive". They don't represent ownership or control, and they don't generate dividends.

Ok, Tank you for your answer. I understand that shares held by issuing account are "inactive". But what about the ones that are held by other accounts ? are they :
A- 1 part of all issued shares of the ownership of the company ?
B- representing 1 part of all issued shares of the profits of company ?
C- something else ?

Hi! They're just shares. There are no restrictions attached such as "only" representing income. You will have all the rights and obligations of a partner in KNS, whatever that may mean. You can feel free to buy up controlling interest in the company if you want to be the CEO, or you can hang back and vote on motions when it pleases you. In all other respects they are shares the same as shares on any other NXT AE company.

nxtuser

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2014, 04:24:52 pm »

Hi! They're just shares. There are no restrictions attached such as "only" representing income. You will have all the rights and obligations of a partner in KNS, whatever that may mean. You can feel free to buy up controlling interest in the company if you want to be the CEO, or you can hang back and vote on motions when it pleases you. In all other respects they are shares the same as shares on any other NXT AE company.

It looks like some assets on the AE are only sharing dividends and not ownership, e.g. BitHaus (quote"Each asset represents .0001% of bithaus profits."), ACH (quote from http://altcoinherald.com/wiki/index.php?title=ACH : ACH Asset Consists of Revenue Sharing From These Current Sources [...])

So I understand that regarding KNS, each share is a share of ownership, and as owners, shareholders can take part to the administration of KNS.
Thanks a lot for this clarification. To my humble opinon, it is very important information.Maybe it could help others to display this info in KNS asset description on the forum.


So when you write :
Once we have sold into the bid, no matter how many shares are sold, the IPO will be closed and we will not sell any more shares unless we have discussed it here first.
in fact share issuance after the IPO can be discussed here on the forum, but as well, if share holders decide so, it may
requires a motion to be voted for. It is great to my point of view.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 04:34:35 pm by nxtuser »
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printshop

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2014, 05:06:22 pm »

Hi! They're just shares. There are no restrictions attached such as "only" representing income. You will have all the rights and obligations of a partner in KNS, whatever that may mean. You can feel free to buy up controlling interest in the company if you want to be the CEO, or you can hang back and vote on motions when it pleases you. In all other respects they are shares the same as shares on any other NXT AE company.

It looks like some assets on the AE are only sharing dividends and not ownership, e.g. BitHaus (quote"Each asset represents .0001% of bithaus profits."), ACH (quote from http://altcoinherald.com/wiki/index.php?title=ACH : ACH Asset Consists of Revenue Sharing From These Current Sources [...])

So I understand that regarding KNS, each share is a share of ownership, and as owners, shareholders can take part to the administration of KNS.
Thanks a lot for this clarification. To my humble opinon, it is very important information.Maybe it could help others to display this info in KNS asset description on the forum.


So when you write :
Once we have sold into the bid, no matter how many shares are sold, the IPO will be closed and we will not sell any more shares unless we have discussed it here first.
in fact share issuance after the IPO can be discussed here on the forum, but as well, if share holders decide so, it may
requires a motion to be voted for. It is great to my point of view.

Right. The way it works is, as the "CEO", I have the right to make any arbitrary management decision as I see fit.

And if you don't like it you can vote me out :D

That's fair, isn't it? I make myself accountable to my shareholders.

nxtuser

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2014, 06:02:47 pm »

I make myself accountable to my shareholders.
This is fair :D I'll vote for you as CEO

Thanks for your answers. Good IPO KNS !
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printshop

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2014, 10:50:25 pm »

I'm probably going to have to change the terms of the IPO with regards to KPS. The issue is related to not knowing how many shares I will sell. I had the initial idea of floating 5% to 10% of the shares into KPS. So here's my plan. The IPO will last about a week, during which time everyone who wants in at 5 will be able to buy.

Then, I will start distributing KNS shares as dividends to KPS, one per week (per share) until KPS has received 10% of the market. The catch is that if KNS falls below 4.5, we will not pay a share dividend until it recovers over 5 again.

I know this is a little tricky, but in retrospect promising a certain number of shares is meaningless. The shares have to have value first.

Under this new plan, a 10% distribution where 20 shares were given per KPS implies 1.175 million shares are sold. This means that in order for one share to be issued as special dividend we must sell 58,750 shares of KNS. I like round numbers and I think that one per 50,000 sold (until 20) is a workable idea. So one way of looking at this rule is that KPS will receive one share for every 50,000 KNS we sell. This looks much more financially viable than a set number of shares. Also, I will pay one share first and then pay the second when we reach the 50,000th share, etc.

Questions? Concerns? Thx~

Sebastien256

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2014, 11:00:35 pm »

hey,you want to put KPS at 5Nxt? Did I understood correctly  :o
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nxtuser

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2014, 02:10:32 am »

I'm probably going to have to change the terms of the IPO with regards to KPS. The issue is related to not knowing how many shares I will sell. I had the initial idea of floating 5% to 10% of the shares into KPS. So here's my plan. The IPO will last about a week, during which time everyone who wants in at 5 will be able to buy.

Then, I will start distributing KNS shares as dividends to KPS, one per week (per share) until KPS has received 10% of the market. The catch is that if KNS falls below 4.5, we will not pay a share dividend until it recovers over 5 again.

I know this is a little tricky, but in retrospect promising a certain number of shares is meaningless. The shares have to have value first.

Under this new plan, a 10% distribution where 20 shares were given per KPS implies 1.175 million shares are sold. This means that in order for one share to be issued as special dividend we must sell 58,750 shares of KNS. I like round numbers and I think that one per 50,000 sold (until 20) is a workable idea. So one way of looking at this rule is that KPS will receive one share for every 50,000 KNS we sell. This looks much more financially viable than a set number of shares. Also, I will pay one share first and then pay the second when we reach the 50,000th share, etc.

Questions? Concerns? Thx~

Hi, I asked you many questions on KNS and it's IPO, It was mainly to help you to communicate you vision for KNS, as I do believe in your projects and your management skills.

First I would like to tell you I really like the way you manage KPS : your communication on daily business, your commitment to keep KPS value through the IPO, when distributing dividends in the same time. It was a fair deal to decide to distribute KNS asset to KPS holders to compensate the NXT taken on KPS account to fund KNS. Maybe you don't want to be unfair with KPS holders (I'm one of them) giving them some shares at IPO price of 5 NXT which value can decrease. But you can see it an other way : you give opportunity to KPS holders to enter in KNS without having to spend any NXT. And to my point of view, it's a fair deal, even if KNS value decrease after/during the IPO. And my personal opinion is that you should stick with that.

Now you arrive at a point where you need to raise capital for KNS. At that point, I guess James would had created Konzi-venture to hold some KPS & KNS shares, and sold Kongzi-venture shares to fund the projects and so on. You know it's not the only way to do it, and I guess it's not your way. That is really ok, as your management styles ares very different. So that is good you question yourself on the best way to do it in the best interest of KNS and KPS.


KPS AND KNS ARE VERY DIFFERENTS
KPS is in FIAT economy, producing physical goods.
A share of KPS is a share of your printers, papers, and soon a storage area i believe :). It looks important to you that it's value represent that, and that dividends shows how well KPS business is doing, as you maintain it's value during the IPO by re-buying shares.
KNS is producing services in crypto economy.A share of KNS represent the value of the work of reports to a community. It is far more subjective.
So I personnally won't have the same expectations from KNS asset and KPS asset.

MY EXPECTATIONS AS A KPS HOLDER
As a KPS holder, I would like you to keep the same management style. I choose to buy this asset because it's business runs in FIAT economy. For that reason, when I bought it, I expected not to be exposed to other risks than FIAT economy. For that reason, I'd rather know it's independant from KNS. I don't want KPS business being killed in the event of a KNS failure. I will feel safer having only to remain confident in your good skills as manager of a printing company. And I don't want to worry about other projects you run. Then, to me, as I said ealier, the transaction you did between the two accounts (5000 NXT against 1000 shares) is fair if you distribute it to KPS shareholders as a compensation, but IMHO you should stop any transaction between KPS and KNS, and isolate totally KNS & KPS.
So I would not do :
I had the initial idea of floating 5% to 10% of the shares into KPS
but I'd stop any transaction between KPS and KNS.

MY EXPECTATIONS AS A (future) KNS HOLDER
As a KNS holder, I'll be ready to take more risks. I don't need it's value to be supported by any re-buy of shares. I prefer to see the IPO funds going to it's core business rather than on shares buying. When KNS will make money, then the dividends you'll distribute will help balancing the asset value, I guess.

I would not do that :
Then, I will start distributing KNS shares as dividends to KPS, one per week (per share) until KPS has received 10% of the market. The catch is that if KNS falls below 4.5, we will not pay a share dividend until it recovers over 5 again.
Because those who cares about the value of KNS are KNS asset buyers and sellers, they would evaluate the opportunity to earn dividends with KNS, and as a result, it should balance the asset value, don't you think ? Dividends could be paid only when there is profits, and after the expenses, including your CEO wages, would be paid for.
Why to deprive KPS holders of their dividends just because the market price of an asset of an other company is not up to a target price of their CEO? If you want to do it that way, you should really create a Kongzi-venture, getting the dividends of KNS and KPS, then making anything it wants with the dividends in NXT or share of any company the venture owns. It would be more logical, even if it not the way I like the most.

ABOUT YOUR KNS IPO
The most important in my point of view is that you manage to raise funds to start KNS business. Your IPO rules were ok for me, with your 2 phases. It's just weird to change rules when they are set. But In the event you may think it's going nowhere, it is better to admit it and to change the rules.
I don't know what you should do. But if the only success factor for your KNS IPO is to make sure you raise enough funds, I gess you could start from that amount to decide when the IPO is over. I really think you should realy clearly communicate on how much you need.
Then there is different tactics to achieve the IPO :
- fix asset price, for instance with 5 NXT sale. The good point is that you'll do what you said before. If you expect share to be at an average of 5 NXT, selling it at this price will avoid spending NXT in transaction fee. Why don't you just then issue at 5 NXT during the whole IPO ?
- letting the market decide the value of the asset. If the IPO end when a determined amount ao NXT is reached, the lowest market price is, the most diluted the capital will be, so it will not be the best interrest for the buyers to buy the shares at 1 NXT, unless they can't afford to spend more. In the other hand, if you get a lot of small shareholders, KNS will look more independent. I would pay more confidence in KNS reports if it is own by many small shareholders, than if it own by few shareholders having huge interests. Then you can burn the excess shares, or send it to an escrow.

I hope it can help in your reflexion, as I hope you'll succed with your KNS IPO. I guess many in the community are happy to see the rise of several actors in asset rating, and I wish the community won't let you down.

GO KNS !
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 02:17:38 am by nxtuser »
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printshop

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2014, 04:28:40 am »

I will feel safer having only to remain confident in your good skills as manager of a printing company. And I don't want to worry about other projects you run. Then, to me, as I said ealier, the transaction you did between the two accounts (5000 NXT against 1000 shares) is fair if you distribute it to KPS shareholders as a compensation, but IMHO you should stop any transaction between KPS and KNS, and isolate totally KNS & KPS.
So I would not do :
I had the initial idea of floating 5% to 10% of the shares into KPS
but I'd stop any transaction between KPS and KNS.

Oh sorry. I mean, issue as dividend -- not grant to KPS as a company. The 1,000 shares that KPS bought from KNS are the only shares that KPS will ever buy from KNS. Please notice that if we feel KNS shares are underpriced then I, as the owner of both KNS and KPS have the responsibility to help KNS first -- and repurchase shares under the KNS banner. So while, if we were independent companies there would be no issue, because I am an insider I am bound to a very great extent against buying KNS shares on the market with KPS. In general it's a bad idea.

And thank you for one of the most memorable posts I have read on this forum :) I'm going to think about what you have said, there are a lot of good ideas here.

Regarding investment from jl777 and what we need to raise, there's apples and then there's apples. Although it would be nice if we raised enough to cover the costs of doing business for the first few months, if we don't I have been told an angel investor will magically step in and buy enough shares over the market to cover our basic costs. Of course, our angel investor wishes to remain anonymous ::) but as long as it's new money coming in on the market you will be able to see that it's fair and square. Also I think that by the size of the order you will be able to tell it's both not me, and not james.

If James does invest I will be happy, and cool with that. But if he doesn't it's his perogative. I'm not expecting anything because he hasn't contacted me over it. He surprised the NXTinspect team as well. I would have thought that if he wanted to invest he might contact me and make suggestions on the IPO terms, for example, or weigh in on other aspects to take care over his investment a little. We shall see.

printshop

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2014, 04:54:33 am »

IPO DETAILS, CLARIFICATION:

As we approach IPO deadline, a few things will require clarification -- the order in which things will be done, for example, will become very important during the IPO. The basic principle I will follow is that no one will have the ability to sell shares for more than 5 NXT during the IPO.

We are UTC+9, which means we are 13 hours ahead of New York, and our IPO may commence at that time (not on Friday EST). For many of you it will feel as if our IPO started on Thursday.

First, KNS will issue shares at 5 NXT. Second, we will distribute the shares to early bird holders. This will prevent anyone from selling shares above 5 NXT until the IPO is over.

During this phase of the IPO, we will play market maker to our own security. We will place the bids as soon as we finish distributing the early bird shares. As we make money doing this, the book value of KNS will begin to rise above 5 NXT. This will make us more attractive to investors, inciting them to buy and discouraging them from selling. Hopefully this will help our IPO.

There is an upper bound on how many shares we will issue. I've also reworked the terms of the IPO to account for a varying number of share sales.

Phase 2a) We will issue 1,000,000 shares (~$22,500).
If these shares do not sell out during our IPO period, we will not issue any new shares on the market without shareholder approval.

Phase 2b) We will retain 51% of the company for future expansion and paying bounties.
After the IPO period, we will re-issue exactly how many shares were sold during the IPO period and keep these shares in reserve. For example, if we sell 90,000 shares during the IPO, we will consider an additional 92,820 shares as active. These will be transferred into an account named "KNS holdings" which is an internal company account.

Phase 3) We will distribute some shares to KPS members
About two weeks after the IPO, we will guarantee all KPS shareholders 1 share of KPS, plus an additional share for every 50,000 shares of KNS sold via IPO. This is calculated so as not to dillute KNS shareholders.

Shares held by the issuing account will not represent control or ownership and will not receive a dividend.\

Comments? Thx~

nxtuser

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2014, 07:51:34 am »

Thanks a lot for your clarifications. All that sounds really good :)

IPO DETAILS, CLARIFICATION:
Phase 2a) We will issue 1,000,000 shares (~$22,500).
If these shares do not sell out during our IPO period, we will not issue any new shares on the market without shareholder approval.
This shares are already created. There is 10'000'000 of them under the ID 7712643580725736238. When you write "We will issue 1,000,000 shares", I guess you mean, "we will place 1,000,000 of the 10'000'000 issued shares for sale on the asset exchange market at the price 5 NXT each". Is that right ?

If these shares do not sell out during our IPO period
Can you clarify when is the end date of IPO period ?

Phase 2b) We will retain 51% of the company for future expansion and paying bounties.
After the IPO period, we will re-issue exactly how many shares were sold during the IPO period and keep these shares in reserve. For example, if we sell 90,000 shares during the IPO, we will consider an additional 92,820 shares as active. These will be transferred into an account named "KNS holdings" which is an internal company account.
So after IPO ends, share distribution will be :
- 49 % to shareholders (buyers from early bird campaign phase 1 (including the 1000 shares bought by KPS) and buyers from market share)
- 51 % belonging to KNS, placed on an account named "KNS holdings", those shares will not be entitled to ownership nor dividends
is that right ?
what will happen to the other "excess" shares ? will they be burned ?

Phase 3) We will distribute some shares to KPS members
About two weeks after the IPO, we will guarantee all KPS shareholders 1 share of KPS, plus an additional share for every 50,000 shares of KNS sold via IPO. This is calculated so as not to dillute KNS shareholders.
Anyway, the shares that will be distributed by KPS to KPS asset holders are the 1000 shares already on KPS account, right ?

The 1,000 shares that KPS bought from KNS are the only shares that KPS will ever buy from KNS.
So I guess you should cancel this 2 orders placed by KPS account NXT-GEA3-AW7K-PWQY-GY3QK on the asset exchange:
- buy order for 100 KNS assets @ 5 NXT / each
- buy order for 100 KNS assets @ 4.8 NXT / each

Please notice that if we feel KNS shares are underpriced then I, as the owner of both KNS and KPS have the responsibility to help KNS first -- and repurchase shares under the KNS banner. So while, if we were independent companies there would be no issue, because I am an insider I am bound to a very great extent against buying KNS shares on the market with KPS. In general it's a bad idea.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you wrote, specially the "I as owner". Could you please replace the "we" and the "I" by : "shareholders as owners"  "me as CEO"  "me as individual"  or that kind of expression ?
I suppose all you personal shares of KPS and KNS will be on your personal account, that mean aside of KPS account NXT-GEA3-AW7K-PWQY-GY3QK, KNS account  NXT-8XV8-EN3G-8QZT-8EBTT and "KNS holdings" account ?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 07:56:22 am by nxtuser »
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printshop

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2014, 08:45:03 am »

Thanks a lot for your clarifications. All that sounds really good :)

You're welcome. You and a lot of the other commentators have helped us out a lot too, so I should be the one who says "Thank You".

The current plan is to leave "unsold" shares as "unissued shares". The account named as "KNS Holdings" (to be created) will be responsible for managing the distribution of the 51%. This way it's easy to keep an eye on the issuer account to make sure no shares go in or out. That is how you know I am not fiddling with the shares.

I "could" burn the shares, but it's really only a surface solution. I can declare a KNS1 asset and state that it is equal in all respects to a KNS asset -- like what Coinomat did with coinomat1. I'm not saying what coinomat did was bad, only that burning or destroying shares doesn't solve the problem of us being able to dump shares. You still have to trust me.

In some ways burning shares or not is an executive decision. For the first little while KNS will own 51% and will be able to veto any shareholder vote. It's a catch-22. If we lose majority control for quick cash, we lose control of the company. This isn't so good for us in the long term. In a way, keeping our interests aligned with yours by owning our own company is the best signal of trust ever. If management doesn't own their own company you can rest assured they don't give a hot steaming bowl of oatmeal what happens to their stock. It is far, far better for us to ensure the share price rises so that our majority ownership rises in value. This is how you know we are trying to do a good job.

Ok, now about KPS owning KNS. The 1,000 shares were bought to give some money to KNS and start the company. But there is no big plan to use KPS investor money to purchase more and more KNS shares. KPS investors will receive a number of KNS shares for free. The reason why they will get shares for free is because KPS is a personal services company. That means the whole thing has value only because I am working on it. It can't be sold because no one else could do the work I do even if I gave them all our IP. So now that I am working on KNS, the KPS investors will receive less of my time than they were promised earlier. This means they will receive less profit in the long run. It is only fair that they receive some value from KNS so that they may continue to profit from the work I am doing as before. I think a minimum is 3 or 4 shares, so the value of the KPS shares equals the value of the KNS shares. I don't know if that's right but it sounds good. Hopefully we will sell 100,000 or more KNS shares and we will be able to do this for our KPS investors.

The current orders are an example to show why no shares will trade above or below 5 NXT during our IPO. Let's say a company tries to sell shares above 5; as you can see, KNS will sell at 5 and no one will buy the higher priced shares during IPO. Secondly, if someone tries to buy in at a low price (say, 4.8), KNS will issue a bit at 4.9 or greater to ensure that investors don't accidentally sell at a low price and lose money. This protects investors. During our IPO you will have free entry in and out of KNS for (essentially) transaction fees. So if you regret your purchase you won't lose anything substantial, and no one will accidentally buy shares at too high a price.

The early bird access program is also there, to make sure you have a chance to take part in the IPO. We've already had a few people send money to the KNS account to take part in this. To take part in the early bird access program, you can send up to 10,000 NXT to the KNS account, and we will transfer you shares before we put the 1,000,000 shares on sale. This way you won't miss out on the IPO if the price skyrockets later on or if someone buys all the shares.

Finally, yes, you are right I'm not the "owner" technically speaking. I just didn't want to say CEO  ;D

Actually now that I think of it, I don't even have a personal NXT account. There's two accounts for KPS, and an account for KNS. I should probably make one for myself but right now I haven't bothered to give myself any bounties. I put all my personal money into KPS.

I suppose I should get a small bounty for setting everything up, but, what is fair? Maybe I will wait until after the IPO and then we can hold a vote on it.

BTW, I have added all this information to an "Official IPO information" post in our sub-forum for easy reference.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 08:58:54 am by printshop »
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nxtuser

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2014, 01:22:32 pm »

Actually now that I think of it, I don't even have a personal NXT account. There's two accounts for KPS, and an account for KNS. I should probably make one for myself but right now I haven't bothered to give myself any bounties. I put all my personal money into KPS.
:o I think this is very important, otherwise, it would be difficult to evaluate your asset. The great point about running a buisness on nxt is that acounts transactions are in public, so anybody can have an idea of the company belongings, see the transactions, and the account holdings. So in my opinion, you must separate your personal belongings from the belongings of the company.

I suppose I should get a small bounty for setting everything up, but, what is fair? Maybe I will wait until after the IPO and then we can hold a vote on it.
I think it is important. And it's nice to see you want to hold a sharholders vote on it. I like that way of doing things. But I think you could go further, and reward yourself for the creation of the company with some assets, transferred on your personal account. If you state this publicly, before the IPO, then everybody will agree it because they will participate to the IPO having this info in hand. ;)

For the first little while KNS will own 51% and will be able to veto any shareholder vote.
??? There is a contradiction here. This is what you said o about the 51% shares on the "KNS Holding" account :
Shares held by the issuing account will not represent control or ownership and will not receive a dividend.
So if they don't represent control, how can you say that those shares entitles to vote ? Even if it is represents ownership, is it stated anywhere that the rights of voter would go to the CEO ?
So, if you want that to be true :
If we lose majority control for quick cash, we lose control of the company. This isn't so good for us in the long term. In a way, keeping our interests aligned with yours by owning our own company is the best signal of trust ever. If management doesn't own their own company you can rest assured they don't give a hot steaming bowl of oatmeal what happens to their stock.
then you should state that the 51% of the "KNS Holding" account can entitles represent ownership and control, but not dividends (as you wish so), and state that the exercise of the voting right associated to those shares is delegated to the CEO, or something in this fashion.

The current plan is to leave "unsold" shares as "unissued shares". The account named as "KNS Holdings" (to be created) will be responsible for managing the distribution of the 51%. This way it's easy to keep an eye on the issuer account to make sure no shares go in or out. That is how you know I am not fiddling with the shares.
Crystal clear. Maybe those last points should be stated in a document, as "company policy".

It is far, far better for us to ensure the share price rises so that our majority ownership rises in value.
This is an executive decision, that I don't personaly share, as I prefer beeing rewarded in dividends than to perform maket sales and buy, causing loss of NXT in transaction fees. That personnel, and I don't mean to impose my opinion.

Ok, now about KPS owning KNS. The 1,000 shares were bought to give some money to KNS and start the company. But there is no big plan to use KPS investor money to purchase more and more KNS shares.
KPS investors will receive a number of KNS shares for free. The reason why they will get shares for free is because KPS is a personal services company. That means the whole thing has value only because I am working on it. It can't be sold because no one else could do the work I do even if I gave them all our IP. So now that I am working on KNS, the KPS investors will receive less of my time than they were promised earlier. This means they will receive less profit in the long run. It is only fair that they receive some value from KNS so that they may continue to profit from the work I am doing as before. I think a minimum is 3 or 4 shares, so the value of the KPS shares equals the value of the KNS shares. I don't know if that's right but it sounds good.
I totally agree, I really think this is fair from you, from a KPS investor point of view. But from a KNS shareholder point of view, it sounds just awful! Why should KNS shareholders accept giving shares for free to investors of a separate company ? KNS shareholders will think that if KPS owner wants to do so, he should buy it at market price, rather than "stealing" the KNS belongings on KNS account, just because as manager, he has access to this account. What I mean is : it's a nice gift for KPS investor to receive KNS shares, but it is not free for KNS shareholders to give it, and there is no reason to do so, or justification possible for it. So IMHO, you can't get it for free. On the other end, you said :
But there is no big plan to use KPS investor money to purchase more and more KNS shares.
So you don't want to spend KPS investors' money in KNS shares buying at market price either. And I think you are totally right. How to sort it out in a logical way then ? If I were you, I would first distribute the KNS shares already on KPS account. They were fairly bought at IPO price (5000 NXT/1000 KNS assets), so nobody can complain about that. Then if you want to give a bigger amount of KNS shares to KPS investors, this is how you can achieve it :
step 1- as said before you may send you some KNS share on your private account to reward yourself personnaly for the setup of KNS
step 2- You may offer some of the shares to KPS, as a way to compensate KPS investor for the time you spent working on an other project than KPS
step 3- As manager of KPS, you may decide to give those KNS assets to KPS investors.
That's IMHO a much cleaner way to proceed.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 01:51:21 pm by nxtuser »
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printshop

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2014, 02:04:22 pm »

you must separate your personal belongings from the belongings of the company.

Of course, but I don't have any personal belongings ;D I haven't claimed ownership of any of KPS or KNS shares. I was giving some personal money to the company, trying to build things up before I started paying myself. But that doesn't necessarily mean I am owed anything. I'll make my money when my companies are successful not by bloodsucking early investors.

For the first little while KNS will own 51% and will be able to veto any shareholder vote.
??? There is a contradiction here.

No, the 51% shares in the distribution account will be considered live. The rest of the shares in the issuer account will be considered inactive.

This is similar to how NXTinspect sold 30% of it's company at the start. We're selling 49%. It's the other (9 million) shares which I am talking about, in the issuer account, which will be kept there away from the distribution account, inactive.

The current plan is to leave "unsold" shares as "unissued shares". The account named as "KNS Holdings" (to be created) will be responsible for managing the distribution of the 51%. This way it's easy to keep an eye on the issuer account to make sure no shares go in or out. That is how you know I am not fiddling with the shares.
Crystal clear. Maybe those last points should be stated in a document, as "company policy".
[/quote]

I'll go add them to the official IPO post in the sub-forum now :) thx.

It is far, far better for us to ensure the share price rises so that our majority ownership rises in value.
This is an executive decision, that I don't personaly share, as I prefer beeing rewarded in dividends than to perform maket sales and buy, causing loss of NXT in transaction fees. That personnel, and I don't mean to impose my opinion.
[/quote]

True, however, if we have to raise $5,000 and our shares are $10, there will be less dillution than if the shares are $1 :)

It's a fine line to decide how much to retain and how much to pay out. Long term I prefer a balanced growth strategy; slowly try to increase both dividends and book value.

Lastly about KPS. Since we will only give one share per 50,000 sold, the dillution will be minimal. How about capping it at 3 shares (so that the value will be 1KPS ~= 3KNS)?

Again, we still have 48 hours before the IPO, plenty of time to talk :) I won't completely cut out the KPS shareholders, but you are right. The more I think about KNS the more I realize giving away shares isn't the best idea re: KNS. All the same, a small number of shares as a thank you will not hurt KNS. The worst we could do is simply give a small gift of shares to KPS itself (say, 5,000 shares) and have that sit in KPS and increase it's book value.

Do you think that giving shares to KPS is better than issuing a special dividend to KPS shareholders? It would allow us to give out smaller number of shares, thus reducing dillution.

Do any KPS shareholders want to weigh in? I know I originally said "20 shares..." but after some thought it's not realistic. How would you feel about getting just 3 shares, or having the shares held by KPS as added value?

chanc3r

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Re: [ANN] Kongzi News Service
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2014, 02:48:25 pm »

Do you think that giving shares to KPS is better than issuing a special dividend to KPS shareholders? It would allow us to give out smaller number of shares, thus reducing dillution.

Do any KPS shareholders want to weigh in? I know I originally said "20 shares..." but after some thought it's not realistic. How would you feel about getting just 3 shares, or having the shares held by KPS as added value?

you announced here a special dividend of 20 KNS shares per KPS share
https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=4740.msg112699#msg112699

this was potentially price affecting, if you are considering withdrawing this dividend then please be clear with your shareholders of both shares
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